When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders.
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@tante @LexYeen It’s so frustrating how I put up anti-scraping stuff on my site just as a gentle “hey so don’t do that, there’s no point to doing that” signal, and yet people go out of their way to break it and then have the gall to complain to me about how pointless it is because of how easy it was to circumvent, completely missing the point
@tante @LexYeen I don’t even try to block scrapers per se, I’m just trying to stop having them scrape the combinatoric explosion of tags. Do you look like a bot? then you don’t get the tag browser. Then they see a difference between bot and person site and they’re like “wellp guess I need to pretend to be a person to get the real site.” The content is the same.
They also ignore my very clear link rels saying there’s no point to following it.
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@tante @LexYeen I don’t even try to block scrapers per se, I’m just trying to stop having them scrape the combinatoric explosion of tags. Do you look like a bot? then you don’t get the tag browser. Then they see a difference between bot and person site and they’re like “wellp guess I need to pretend to be a person to get the real site.” The content is the same.
They also ignore my very clear link rels saying there’s no point to following it.
@tante @LexYeen I recently got in a conversation with one of these bot authors and they said they “had to” because so many sites “abuse” those rels (noindex/nofollow) to try to prevent scrapers and I’m like
the point to the rels is to tell scrapers that there’s no value in following those links. maybe you should listen.
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When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders. You are an abuser.
It's a test about how you treat other people, whether you respect their dignity. And you failed.
@tante These are people who think we are purely the product of our outputs.
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When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders. You are an abuser.
It's a test about how you treat other people, whether you respect their dignity. And you failed.
@tante
guess that is how youtube thinks about me using an adblocker as well?
can't wait for the blogpost about how it's not that
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@tante
guess that is how youtube thinks about me using an adblocker as well?
can't wait for the blogpost about how it's not that@TripTilt I do think that there is a difference between corporations and individuals. My website is just my personal work that I host as a person.
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@tante
guess that is how youtube thinks about me using an adblocker as well?
can't wait for the blogpost about how it's not thatIt all goes back to why a website operator gets to dictate what software (a user agent, plugins, etc) runs or doesn't on MY machine.
For me, I run defeat tools. Anti-DRM and DRM strippers. I have a cloudflare defeat container. I have a Anubis defeat container. Paywall defeat container. And I also run bypass-paywalls-complete over from gitflic.ru (Russian github). I run these tools because this is what makes the web usable. And its terrible I have to, but also a necessity.
I also use https://hister.org/ personally. Has all my history and webpages and everything. Saves and scrapes as I browse. Also has LLM features and API so I can also send my agents when Im watching stuff.
"Abuse" is a common one, of which I soundly reject. My computer. My user agent. My rules on my side. If you don't want to share, then by all means, sudo systemctl disable nginx && sudo systemctl stop nginx.
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It all goes back to why a website operator gets to dictate what software (a user agent, plugins, etc) runs or doesn't on MY machine.
For me, I run defeat tools. Anti-DRM and DRM strippers. I have a cloudflare defeat container. I have a Anubis defeat container. Paywall defeat container. And I also run bypass-paywalls-complete over from gitflic.ru (Russian github). I run these tools because this is what makes the web usable. And its terrible I have to, but also a necessity.
I also use https://hister.org/ personally. Has all my history and webpages and everything. Saves and scrapes as I browse. Also has LLM features and API so I can also send my agents when Im watching stuff.
"Abuse" is a common one, of which I soundly reject. My computer. My user agent. My rules on my side. If you don't want to share, then by all means, sudo systemctl disable nginx && sudo systemctl stop nginx.
of course you are right, how see it, blocking agents and the like is like the bouncer on a website that does not want you to enter or see something, while blocking ads is avoiding not a bouncer but the loud clowns making people interested in the circus and leading them in through the shop and thus showing them something they didn't want to see
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When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders. You are an abuser.
It's a test about how you treat other people, whether you respect their dignity. And you failed.
@tante out of curiosity, what notable examples of this are there (aside from the thing when a bluesky user submitted an llm-generated patch to open-slopware)
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It all goes back to why a website operator gets to dictate what software (a user agent, plugins, etc) runs or doesn't on MY machine.
For me, I run defeat tools. Anti-DRM and DRM strippers. I have a cloudflare defeat container. I have a Anubis defeat container. Paywall defeat container. And I also run bypass-paywalls-complete over from gitflic.ru (Russian github). I run these tools because this is what makes the web usable. And its terrible I have to, but also a necessity.
I also use https://hister.org/ personally. Has all my history and webpages and everything. Saves and scrapes as I browse. Also has LLM features and API so I can also send my agents when Im watching stuff.
"Abuse" is a common one, of which I soundly reject. My computer. My user agent. My rules on my side. If you don't want to share, then by all means, sudo systemctl disable nginx && sudo systemctl stop nginx.
@crankylinuxuser @TripTilt @tante "My computer. My user agent. My rules on my side. If you don't want to share, then by all means, sudo systemctl disable nginx && sudo systemctl stop nginx."
They did. It is named Anubis and you're really making their point. If someone puts a lock some something and says don't touch, you can't tell them, "Well if you don't want people to touch it, then don't put it outside!"
Your computer yes, but interacting with THEIR computer. And they don't consent.
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When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders. You are an abuser.
It's a test about how you treat other people, whether you respect their dignity. And you failed.
@tante we knew that as soon as they ignored
robots.txt -
@tante out of curiosity, what notable examples of this are there (aside from the thing when a bluesky user submitted an llm-generated patch to open-slopware)
@hexaheximal @davidgerard just linked a tool some Kernel dev generated to beat "Anubis", which is one of those kinds of tools
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When you "break" the anti-AI software I have on my website that does not illustrate that the software doesn't work well enough: It shows that you are someone who explicitly circumvents people's stated values, preferences and borders. You are an abuser.
It's a test about how you treat other people, whether you respect their dignity. And you failed.
@tante Techbros all have a problem with consent.
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@tante Techbros all have a problem with consent.
so potus
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@hexaheximal @davidgerard just linked a tool some Kernel dev generated to beat "Anubis", which is one of those kinds of tools
@tante @hexaheximal @davidgerard
what? how is anubis beatable? dont they have to use at least a headless browser? so it is heavy for scrapers because of the challenge?
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@tante @hexaheximal @davidgerard
what? how is anubis beatable? dont they have to use at least a headless browser? so it is heavy for scrapers because of the challenge?
@utf_7 @tante @davidgerard from a technical perspective, it is actually trivially easy to defeat anubis. it works by calculating a hash proof-of-work, which a standalone program can do too. and, of course, once the challenge is completed it stores a challenge proof as a cookie. the result is an anti-bot system that is really just a javascript checker with fancy marketing
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@utf_7 @tante @davidgerard from a technical perspective, it is actually trivially easy to defeat anubis. it works by calculating a hash proof-of-work, which a standalone program can do too. and, of course, once the challenge is completed it stores a challenge proof as a cookie. the result is an anti-bot system that is really just a javascript checker with fancy marketing
@hexaheximal @tante @davidgerard
uff, hard to beat that shit then. besides invisible links that scrapers may follow, i dont think recaptcha is ai proof
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@crankylinuxuser @TripTilt @tante "My computer. My user agent. My rules on my side. If you don't want to share, then by all means, sudo systemctl disable nginx && sudo systemctl stop nginx."
They did. It is named Anubis and you're really making their point. If someone puts a lock some something and says don't touch, you can't tell them, "Well if you don't want people to touch it, then don't put it outside!"
Your computer yes, but interacting with THEIR computer. And they don't consent.
When the data hits my machine/network, I'll do with it as I choose.
I have tools to bypass Anubis as well. Again, even Anubis considers even a secured Firefox 'abusive'. So does cloudflare and google. Turns out to not be considered abusive, you have to be willing to get abused. Imagine that.
And what more of an abuser is there when that entity demands their software or configuration on YOUR MACHINE. That's hella abusive. And par for the course for scum like DRM peddlers, and evidently Anubis users.
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@hexaheximal @tante @davidgerard
uff, hard to beat that shit then. besides invisible links that scrapers may follow, i dont think recaptcha is ai proof
@utf_7 @hexaheximal @tante yeah, it "beats" something that anubis doesn't claim to do. it's a bad post.
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@utf_7 @hexaheximal @tante yeah, it "beats" something that anubis doesn't claim to do. it's a bad post.
@davidgerard @utf_7 @tante while anubis does block (most) scrapers, that's really only because at least most of them don't implement javascript at all, let alone the required features to run the proof-of-work code.
iirc also some scrapers have been modified to now bypass the proof-of-work challenge page by just computing the proof-of-work itself
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of course you are right, how see it, blocking agents and the like is like the bouncer on a website that does not want you to enter or see something, while blocking ads is avoiding not a bouncer but the loud clowns making people interested in the circus and leading them in through the shop and thus showing them something they didn't want to see
Tante has already made a distinction between companies and individuals. I'm OK with that.
But I, an individual, use multiple user agents for my personal reasons. My tools do scrape/save. BTW thats legal. And my tools display and scrape both, to lessen server impact. (Hister).
All this is ranting is about AI and LLMs. And Its all just a loud proclamation that they are "Right". (Insert old man yelling at cloud meme)
