Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs Why a poll?
As if you cared about any feedback.@240185 I've already used the results of this poll to push for change in the AI kill switch. The feedback was massively appreciated.
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@heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I didn't see the point in including options that were never going to be actioned. If anything, that would be extremely misleading.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
Nobody *wants* a computer. I’m including phones there.
You get a computer 'cos you’ve got a *job* to do. So you get software to do the job. And you need to run the software on a computer, and it’ll have an operating system.
Neither the computer or the OS are supposed to be noticed.
If anyone notices your operating system, you've already lost.
I just got a new phone, a Fairphone. It supports alternate Android versions, e/os and PostmarketOS. Like, those are *officially* supported, not just hackish extras.
But I’ve kept it to completely stock Android 15, 'cos I need particular commercial apps, from the Google Play store, running on a standard system, to do my stuff.
I could muck around with an alternate system and hack the Play store onto it. Or I could not do that.
I’m used to mucking around, I’ve been on Linux since 2005. And I was on FreeBSD before that. (I moved when I noticed that all the stuff I was running was Linux binaries under emulation and Ubuntu had vastly superior package management.) I’ve got like *one* Windows app that doesn’t work in Wine, that’s the Kindle Previewer. I run it in a Windows 10 virtual machine.
Platforms *must* be transparent. All these platforms start transparent then some marketer goes NOTICE ME and they think they’re the star of the show. Windows did that. It’s got a job, it’s to run thirty years of all your old stuff! Now Windows 11 gets in your face and wants to be your *friend*.
Linux has always fallen at the fact that people have to notice it. But Windows and now even MacOS, especially with Liquid Ass, have gone hard into NOTICE ME. Linux is getting new users because it’s *less* annoying than Windows 11, even for running Windows software.
Even the stock Android 15 has delusions of stardom. No, I want the power button to be a power button, not a fucking Gemini button.
Firefox started as Phoenix, which was very much a blank slate browser. The Mozilla Suite was the open source version of Netscape 6/7, an AOL project, and extremely NOTICE ME. Phoenix’s whole selling point was it just appeared and there was the web. (That’s why they removed the splash screen.)
Chrome started the same way - blank slate, then it slowly decayed into NOTICE ME. Internet Explorer started the same way, IE4 versus Netscape Navigator going NOTICE ME. Then IE and Edge decayed into NOTICE ME.
Generative AI doesn't have a purpose, so it goes NOTICE ME and demands the user finds a use case for it. Then the people who think NOTICE ME is winning, not losing, don't understand why the users hate it so much.
Firefox is adding AI to go NOTICE ME. This is a loser strategy for losers. This is obvious to everyone who actually uses a web browser.
If anyone notices your web browser, you’ve already lost.
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@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast I mean, this is the same account that recently posted that they hope Firefox can regain the trust of its user base.
Nonsense like this isn't making that happen.
The choices as you present them are all, "AI code for everyone, but you can turn it off!" Except the kill switch feature doesn't even exist yet and you are already carving it up with exceptions. If your current trajectory holds true, and I'll bet good money it does, the kill switch is going to end up being nothing but exceptions, rendering it effectively useless.
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@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari not addressing it is manipulative because it lets people assume that there is still room for negotiation when you've said there isn't (only after being repeatedly pressed on it).
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Did you seriously believe that unshipping a largely well-regarded feature like translations was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt the missing option which you are responding to is "Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install"
I've been following your responses because (correct me if I'm wrong) you have not addressed any of the "make them all add-ons" responses.
It has been repeated ad nauseam with good reason considering the opt-in/consent issue with AI features
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@StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard Firefox only exists because Google subsidize them so they can point to FF as "proof" that Chrome isn't a monopoly. With the new regime in power, that's a dead issue. So Google want FF to push AI adoption now because they've figured out how to monetize it and they don't want precious eyeballs evading their slopware. If Google cut off their "search" payment to FF, Mozilla goes bust and the C-suite lose their jobs. QED.
@cstross @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard ...has google figured out how to monetize it? I still only see nonconsensual unasked for ai results in my searches. I'm definitely not paying for any of that
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt the missing option which you are responding to is "Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install"
I've been following your responses because (correct me if I'm wrong) you have not addressed any of the "make them all add-ons" responses.
It has been repeated ad nauseam with good reason considering the opt-in/consent issue with AI features
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
Given the poll was about translations, the option you wanted would amount to unshipping a largely well-regarded feature.
Again, did you seriously and honestly believe that was on the table for Firefox 148?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social Why are you missing the obvious option for "Keep all AI out of Firefox"?
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast I mean, this is the same account that recently posted that they hope Firefox can regain the trust of its user base.
Nonsense like this isn't making that happen.
The choices as you present them are all, "AI code for everyone, but you can turn it off!" Except the kill switch feature doesn't even exist yet and you are already carving it up with exceptions. If your current trajectory holds true, and I'll bet good money it does, the kill switch is going to end up being nothing but exceptions, rendering it effectively useless.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast Also, the destiny of all software kill switches against a marketing-driven feature is to be removed a year later. Our dude seems to think Mastodon users have no experience of the computer industry.
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
Nobody *wants* a computer. I’m including phones there.
You get a computer 'cos you’ve got a *job* to do. So you get software to do the job. And you need to run the software on a computer, and it’ll have an operating system.
Neither the computer or the OS are supposed to be noticed.
If anyone notices your operating system, you've already lost.
I just got a new phone, a Fairphone. It supports alternate Android versions, e/os and PostmarketOS. Like, those are *officially* supported, not just hackish extras.
But I’ve kept it to completely stock Android 15, 'cos I need particular commercial apps, from the Google Play store, running on a standard system, to do my stuff.
I could muck around with an alternate system and hack the Play store onto it. Or I could not do that.
I’m used to mucking around, I’ve been on Linux since 2005. And I was on FreeBSD before that. (I moved when I noticed that all the stuff I was running was Linux binaries under emulation and Ubuntu had vastly superior package management.) I’ve got like *one* Windows app that doesn’t work in Wine, that’s the Kindle Previewer. I run it in a Windows 10 virtual machine.
Platforms *must* be transparent. All these platforms start transparent then some marketer goes NOTICE ME and they think they’re the star of the show. Windows did that. It’s got a job, it’s to run thirty years of all your old stuff! Now Windows 11 gets in your face and wants to be your *friend*.
Linux has always fallen at the fact that people have to notice it. But Windows and now even MacOS, especially with Liquid Ass, have gone hard into NOTICE ME. Linux is getting new users because it’s *less* annoying than Windows 11, even for running Windows software.
Even the stock Android 15 has delusions of stardom. No, I want the power button to be a power button, not a fucking Gemini button.
Firefox started as Phoenix, which was very much a blank slate browser. The Mozilla Suite was the open source version of Netscape 6/7, an AOL project, and extremely NOTICE ME. Phoenix’s whole selling point was it just appeared and there was the web. (That’s why they removed the splash screen.)
Chrome started the same way - blank slate, then it slowly decayed into NOTICE ME. Internet Explorer started the same way, IE4 versus Netscape Navigator going NOTICE ME. Then IE and Edge decayed into NOTICE ME.
Generative AI doesn't have a purpose, so it goes NOTICE ME and demands the user finds a use case for it. Then the people who think NOTICE ME is winning, not losing, don't understand why the users hate it so much.
Firefox is adding AI to go NOTICE ME. This is a loser strategy for losers. This is obvious to everyone who actually uses a web browser.
If anyone notices your web browser, you’ve already lost.
@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
I don't agree with every point made here, but this is a truly wonderful manifesto, and I would gladly march behind it.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
Given the poll was about translations, the option you wanted would amount to unshipping a largely well-regarded feature.
Again, did you seriously and honestly believe that was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt who said unshipping?
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt who said unshipping?
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
By making something a plugin, I assume that means removing it from its current place - integrated into the browser. If I'm wrong about that, your option is unclear.
"it shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place" suggests to me removing it from the browser code, no?
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
Given the poll was about translations, the option you wanted would amount to unshipping a largely well-regarded feature.
Again, did you seriously and honestly believe that was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @zzt your response again fails to address the many "make them all add-ons" responses.
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@firefoxwebdevs @zzt You ignored the firefox userbase's voice when it came to adding AI in the first place, don't pretend you're listening now when you're really just trying to get the users to come up with justifications for what you have already decided to do. Firefox users have repeatedly said we do not want AI features imstalled by default, you chose not to listen and now you're trying to find ways you can feel less bad about that by pretending you gave people options when it comes to AI usage, rather than taking one away.
If you cared about what 'the community' wants, you would have asked people when the AI notion was first pitched and taken no for an answer, but yet again, AI enthusiasts have acted without consent.
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@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
I don't agree with every point made here, but this is a truly wonderful manifesto, and I would gladly march behind it.
@jztusk @firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari mostly derived from @fasterandworse rants tbf
a "manifesto" is a polemic against the state of things. I think I'm describing the existing world here.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
By making something a plugin, I assume that means removing it from its current place - integrated into the browser. If I'm wrong about that, your option is unclear.
"it shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place" suggests to me removing it from the browser code, no?
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt why would moving if "from its current place" and making it an add-on be "unshipping"?
Convert it to an add-on, pre-install it, because we're past the opt-in point by now, then we can uninstall it like any other add-on and you can all forget about a nonsense kill switch
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@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast Also, the destiny of all software kill switches against a marketing-driven feature is to be removed a year later. Our dude seems to think Mastodon users have no experience of the computer industry.
@davidgerard @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast
Who are you to know, it's not like your name is in the firefox credits or something
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@cstross @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard ...has google figured out how to monetize it? I still only see nonconsensual unasked for ai results in my searches. I'm definitely not paying for any of that
@autonomousapps @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard They have studies showing that if they show the AI results first, a significant proportion of google users stay on google (to explore the AI results) rather than following outbound links to the public web. Thereby giving google more opportunities to shove google's own ads under the users noses.
It really *is* that moronic.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
By making something a plugin, I assume that means removing it from its current place - integrated into the browser. If I'm wrong about that, your option is unclear.
"it shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place" suggests to me removing it from the browser code, no?
@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @zzt make it a preinstalled addon, easy. Mozilla has done preinstalled addons lots before.
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@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast Also, the destiny of all software kill switches against a marketing-driven feature is to be removed a year later. Our dude seems to think Mastodon users have no experience of the computer industry.
@davidgerard @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast Once Lucy pulls the football away from you for the 10,000th time, you can't help but learn not to trust the MBAs touching your computer.
