As I posted recently, the continuned growth of mastodon.social is putting the #Fediverse in danger (here's why: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/).
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@julian @FediTips @andypiper I agree. I wonder if there's an onboarding flow that's like, "First, find out if you already have a server you can be a part of. Second, set up a server for a group you're in (either by hosting it yourself or getting one from a hosting provider). Lastly, try one of these..."
I run a site at https://growyourown.services to help and encourage non-technical people to create their own instances through managed hosting servers (which don't require any tech knowledge nowadays). It would be great if more people did this
But I'm not sure how this helps prevent centralisation caused by the "sign up with mastodon.social" button? By definition the people who click on that are the ones who don't click on "Pick another server".
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@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Yes, exactly on point. The best case scenario for the Fediverse is a rough alignment of servers with cohesive communities, because if the community matches the infrastructure, that's good for moderation, long-term stability, and the day-to-day experience of each individual. A default server can't provide that.
Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend.
@julian @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn
"Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend."
That is what I am trying to encourage on https://fedi.garden for example, which are all well-moderated small-to-medium servers.
But the people who visit such sites aren't going to be the ones who click on "Sign up on mastodon.social". It's that button that is causing the problem this thread is about.
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p.s. To avoid repetition of replies:
-If people forget name of server they signed up on, it's written on the email they received when they signed up.
-Mastodon.social is in no way more reliable or easier than other servers with similar or better track records.
-If Mastodon gGmbH does not trust anyone else to run a server properly, why should anyone else trust Mastodon gGmbH to run a server properly? "Trust me, but I won't trust you" is a terrible argument in a collaborative project.
p.p.s. Thanks for all the replies, they are interesting and thought-out but many seem to be addressing slightly different topics?
This particular problem of centralisation is being caused by a very specific thing: the "Sign up on mastodon.social" button on the official apps and official site.
If we want to stop this wave of centralisation, we need to focus on changing this button so that it no longer directs people to mastodon.social.
The Fediverse is unique and precious, let's not lose it.
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@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn I'm personally also quite intrigued by the idea of treating the default as a “tutorial server”. Video games manage to design sandbox areas that anyone can use to try out new toys, but that naturally get boring after a while unless you leave them and explore. I think trying to translate that concept to fedi servers could be fruitful, albeit difficult.
@julian @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling pool…) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once you’ve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesn’t) matter.
(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualify…)
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@julian @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling pool…) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once you’ve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesn’t) matter.
(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualify…)
@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
Currently they are presented with these two buttons:
"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?
If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.
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@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
Currently they are presented with these two buttons:
"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?
If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.
@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy Here is the reasoning behind a tutorial server/paddling pool. Servers matter, they do matter and they should matter and I think we all, in this discussion, agree that fedi’s strength is the ability to build around communities. So we should, I think, start by telling people that; not by telling them they need to make a choice that doesn’t matter when it does. If you already know what a server is you should of course have that option “Pick your own server”. The other option would be “Get started here and pick one later”.
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@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy Here is the reasoning behind a tutorial server/paddling pool. Servers matter, they do matter and they should matter and I think we all, in this discussion, agree that fedi’s strength is the ability to build around communities. So we should, I think, start by telling people that; not by telling them they need to make a choice that doesn’t matter when it does. If you already know what a server is you should of course have that option “Pick your own server”. The other option would be “Get started here and pick one later”.
@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
It's fine to have an optional tutorial, that would be a great resource.
“Pick another server”
“Get started here and pick one later”These would be good options, but so many people say they just want to get started straight away without any picking, that they would demand a "Sign up on (XXXXX)" option too.
So this would give 3 options:
"Sign up on (featured rotating server from reliable pool)"
"Pick another server"
"Tutorial server to help you choose" -
And actually I'd go farther and say it might be better to focus on community-led alternatives to commercial social networks in general -- not just fedi. For people looking for a US-focused, Black-centric microblogging experience, Blacksky might well be the best option today (and as Northsky becomes more real, that's likely to be a good option for a North American-focused 2SLGBTQIA+-centric microblogging experience). For people looking for a Palestinian-friendly photo/video-sharing app, Upscrolled might be a good option even though it's not decentralized.
I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
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I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
imo a core problem is that perceptually, an app is usually tied software (the mastodon app) instead of network (the fediverse app) or server (the indiewebsocial app)
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I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.
Talking to them is an interesting mix of “we don't have a mandate to take this kind of risk” and “if we can't figure this out, then who can?”
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@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.
Talking to them is an interesting mix of “we don't have a mandate to take this kind of risk” and “if we can't figure this out, then who can?”
@julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips this is the kind of situation this new Mastodon service is aimed at, no? https://joinmastodon.org/hosting
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@FediTips We can't be telling people “don't worry too much about all that server stuff for now” and also “oh you don't know if your account was on mstdn.social or mas.to, then you're just outta luck sorry”.
We also know that asking fedi newcomers to pick their own server does not work. Your suggestion addresses this point.
My conclusion is that having a default server for all newbies (not invited by a friend) is the best practical approach. Somewhere people can get their bearings.
@julian feels like a very simple way to make sure people can find out what server their account is on is to either send them an email or have a "forgot your server" entry that enables them to search fedi for their username.
If that is really a problem that is cited as an answer to the rotating server idea, I think it's a non-issue.
@FediTips -
I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a québécois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.
( https://fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)
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imo a core problem is that perceptually, an app is usually tied software (the mastodon app) instead of network (the fediverse app) or server (the indiewebsocial app)
Mo-Me is leaning into this dynamic. For #MediaLiberationDay, it was very useful to be able to point people to Mo-Me to get started (as oppose to "start by picking an instance" or "start on .social"). And I wouldn't call it a "paddling pool" since it's got pretty rich functionality and is fully federated, but it's definitely an example of what I think of as a "starter instance".
One of the challenges with the app focus though is it's likely to reinforce the default tendency on flagship instances. If I want to use Piefed-the-app, it's natural to sign up on piefed.social; even though they're putting a lot of work into helping people choose an instance when they sign up (and kudos to them for doing it!), why not just sign up on piefed.social? It's hard to answer that without talking about instances and why they matter!
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@UlrikeHahn @FediTips I think difficulty choosing a server was the biggest reason that stopped people from signing up at all in 2022. But people who managed to pick a server and then forgot it were also a surprisingly large group.
The whole “it's kinda like email” cliché originated in part in the desire to convey the ways in which your server matters. But Mastodon newcomers mostly thought “making a Mastodon account” ≈ “making a Twitter account”, i.e. that your username and password are enough.
i.e. that your username and password are enough.
This definitely introduces other issues, but I wonder if you could force someone to remember their server by just requiring it when you sign in, i.e. the username they type in is the full user@mastodon.social. Or at the very least allowing you to login with the full username (and then if you attempted to login to a different mastodon frontend it would just redirect you because it has your domain now)
Though as I was typing this I checked the login process for mastodon and you actually just use an email, so probably renders this point moot.
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It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a québécois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.
( https://fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)
@thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian @FediTips the fact that there are no new largish instances makes it seem like an opportunity to create a “starter instance” that could combine tight moderation with friendly people willing to help newcomers around…
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@thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian @FediTips the fact that there are no new largish instances makes it seem like an opportunity to create a “starter instance” that could combine tight moderation with friendly people willing to help newcomers around…
@UlrikeHahn @thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian
The best instances for new people are smaller instances. They have admins that are easy to get hold of, friendly, and tend to be very tightly moderated because they have a much higher moderator to user ratio.
You don't need a starter instance, you just need to be sending people to well-run instances that have been operating with a good track record for years (which you can find at https://fedi.garden/servers-sorted-by-founding-year/ for example).
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i.e. that your username and password are enough.
This definitely introduces other issues, but I wonder if you could force someone to remember their server by just requiring it when you sign in, i.e. the username they type in is the full user@mastodon.social. Or at the very least allowing you to login with the full username (and then if you attempted to login to a different mastodon frontend it would just redirect you because it has your domain now)
Though as I was typing this I checked the login process for mastodon and you actually just use an email, so probably renders this point moot.
It's already as easy and simple as it can get:
-Everyone has to have an email to sign up
-Everyone who signs up gets an email that has the name of their server
-If you forget the server name, you just look up the email by searching for "mastodon"Forcing people to type stuff in etc makes it unnecessarily difficult. All they have to do is search their email.
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@julian feels like a very simple way to make sure people can find out what server their account is on is to either send them an email or have a "forgot your server" entry that enables them to search fedi for their username.
If that is really a problem that is cited as an answer to the rotating server idea, I think it's a non-issue.
@FediTips"is to either send them an email "
This is the thing, literally every person who signs up on Mastodon gets an email telling them the name of their server.
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@julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips this is the kind of situation this new Mastodon service is aimed at, no? https://joinmastodon.org/hosting
@UlrikeHahn @julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy
There are already many good independent managed hosting services for Masto and Fedi instances such as https://masto.host or https://fedihost.co or https://cloud68.co
It would be even more centralisation if Mastodon gGmbH was hosting other instances, they would become even more tempting for corporations to buy out.
