As I posted recently, the continuned growth of mastodon.social is putting the #Fediverse in danger (here's why: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/).
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I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.
Talking to them is an interesting mix of “we don't have a mandate to take this kind of risk” and “if we can't figure this out, then who can?”
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@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.
Talking to them is an interesting mix of “we don't have a mandate to take this kind of risk” and “if we can't figure this out, then who can?”
@julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips this is the kind of situation this new Mastodon service is aimed at, no? https://joinmastodon.org/hosting
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@FediTips We can't be telling people “don't worry too much about all that server stuff for now” and also “oh you don't know if your account was on mstdn.social or mas.to, then you're just outta luck sorry”.
We also know that asking fedi newcomers to pick their own server does not work. Your suggestion addresses this point.
My conclusion is that having a default server for all newbies (not invited by a friend) is the best practical approach. Somewhere people can get their bearings.
@julian feels like a very simple way to make sure people can find out what server their account is on is to either send them an email or have a "forgot your server" entry that enables them to search fedi for their username.
If that is really a problem that is cited as an answer to the rotating server idea, I think it's a non-issue.
@FediTips -
I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a québécois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.
( https://fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)
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imo a core problem is that perceptually, an app is usually tied software (the mastodon app) instead of network (the fediverse app) or server (the indiewebsocial app)
Mo-Me is leaning into this dynamic. For #MediaLiberationDay, it was very useful to be able to point people to Mo-Me to get started (as oppose to "start by picking an instance" or "start on .social"). And I wouldn't call it a "paddling pool" since it's got pretty rich functionality and is fully federated, but it's definitely an example of what I think of as a "starter instance".
One of the challenges with the app focus though is it's likely to reinforce the default tendency on flagship instances. If I want to use Piefed-the-app, it's natural to sign up on piefed.social; even though they're putting a lot of work into helping people choose an instance when they sign up (and kudos to them for doing it!), why not just sign up on piefed.social? It's hard to answer that without talking about instances and why they matter!
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@UlrikeHahn @FediTips I think difficulty choosing a server was the biggest reason that stopped people from signing up at all in 2022. But people who managed to pick a server and then forgot it were also a surprisingly large group.
The whole “it's kinda like email” cliché originated in part in the desire to convey the ways in which your server matters. But Mastodon newcomers mostly thought “making a Mastodon account” ≈ “making a Twitter account”, i.e. that your username and password are enough.
i.e. that your username and password are enough.
This definitely introduces other issues, but I wonder if you could force someone to remember their server by just requiring it when you sign in, i.e. the username they type in is the full user@mastodon.social. Or at the very least allowing you to login with the full username (and then if you attempted to login to a different mastodon frontend it would just redirect you because it has your domain now)
Though as I was typing this I checked the login process for mastodon and you actually just use an email, so probably renders this point moot.
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It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a québécois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.
( https://fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)
@thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian @FediTips the fact that there are no new largish instances makes it seem like an opportunity to create a “starter instance” that could combine tight moderation with friendly people willing to help newcomers around…
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@thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian @FediTips the fact that there are no new largish instances makes it seem like an opportunity to create a “starter instance” that could combine tight moderation with friendly people willing to help newcomers around…
@UlrikeHahn @thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian
The best instances for new people are smaller instances. They have admins that are easy to get hold of, friendly, and tend to be very tightly moderated because they have a much higher moderator to user ratio.
You don't need a starter instance, you just need to be sending people to well-run instances that have been operating with a good track record for years (which you can find at https://fedi.garden/servers-sorted-by-founding-year/ for example).
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i.e. that your username and password are enough.
This definitely introduces other issues, but I wonder if you could force someone to remember their server by just requiring it when you sign in, i.e. the username they type in is the full user@mastodon.social. Or at the very least allowing you to login with the full username (and then if you attempted to login to a different mastodon frontend it would just redirect you because it has your domain now)
Though as I was typing this I checked the login process for mastodon and you actually just use an email, so probably renders this point moot.
It's already as easy and simple as it can get:
-Everyone has to have an email to sign up
-Everyone who signs up gets an email that has the name of their server
-If you forget the server name, you just look up the email by searching for "mastodon"Forcing people to type stuff in etc makes it unnecessarily difficult. All they have to do is search their email.
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@julian feels like a very simple way to make sure people can find out what server their account is on is to either send them an email or have a "forgot your server" entry that enables them to search fedi for their username.
If that is really a problem that is cited as an answer to the rotating server idea, I think it's a non-issue.
@FediTips"is to either send them an email "
This is the thing, literally every person who signs up on Mastodon gets an email telling them the name of their server.
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@julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips this is the kind of situation this new Mastodon service is aimed at, no? https://joinmastodon.org/hosting
@UlrikeHahn @julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy
There are already many good independent managed hosting services for Masto and Fedi instances such as https://masto.host or https://fedihost.co or https://cloud68.co
It would be even more centralisation if Mastodon gGmbH was hosting other instances, they would become even more tempting for corporations to buy out.
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Mo-Me is leaning into this dynamic. For #MediaLiberationDay, it was very useful to be able to point people to Mo-Me to get started (as oppose to "start by picking an instance" or "start on .social"). And I wouldn't call it a "paddling pool" since it's got pretty rich functionality and is fully federated, but it's definitely an example of what I think of as a "starter instance".
One of the challenges with the app focus though is it's likely to reinforce the default tendency on flagship instances. If I want to use Piefed-the-app, it's natural to sign up on piefed.social; even though they're putting a lot of work into helping people choose an instance when they sign up (and kudos to them for doing it!), why not just sign up on piefed.social? It's hard to answer that without talking about instances and why they matter!
@thenexusofprivacy
Yeah MoMe is a great exampleI get your point on how app focus also increases flagship importance. But I think that also partially points to that we keep trying to see the platform software as neutral with all expressions of community coming from servers, and I’m increasingly starting to feel that’s a dead end
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@thenexusofprivacy
Yeah MoMe is a great exampleI get your point on how app focus also increases flagship importance. But I think that also partially points to that we keep trying to see the platform software as neutral with all expressions of community coming from servers, and I’m increasingly starting to feel that’s a dead end
@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips Laurens, can you say more about this?
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@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips Laurens, can you say more about this?
@UlrikeHahn @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian
Whatever you suggest, please say something that doesn't involve centralisation.
This isn't meant to be a thread about how to do onboarding, it's a thread about how to stop centralisation.
In this particular case it's a badly-conceived onboarding mechanism that is causing the problem, but the problem itself is the centralisation.
All discussion is pointless if the Fedi centralises, because it would no longer have a reason to exist.
