"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
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@Kristian_Kiehling if your only two options are “prolong war” or “do nothing” then you should check the return address.
@ErikUden Ah yes, the imperialist take. All you have to do is to submit yourself to the empire to avoid this inconvenience.
Give up your home, let the empire torture you to death (Bucha, for example https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/ ).
Don't worry about your kids, they will be separated and re-trained into more soldiers for the next war.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/EUR5061362022ENGLISH.pdf
https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/humanitarian-research-lab-yale-school-public-health-russias-systematic-program-re-education-adoption-ukraines-children-enruukI wish you never have to experience anything like this yourself.
@Kristian_Kiehling -
I think it relies more on fear and other humans psychological characteristics than ignorance.
The need for humans to have a structured architecture of beliefs to make them functional is one of their greatest vulnerabilities. And « Quick and simple answer will be rewarded with dopamine » a fatal exploit vector.
Specially in societies that rewards social performance over anything else, where « doubts on stuff » are very unwelcomed.
It’s easier to steer a population over nationalism, binary thinking, faith, than to embrace complexity and the many paradoxical aspects of our existence as individuals and collectives.
What you describe, applies to a part of humanity, who are more driven by emotion. This is how people like Murdoch make their money (and churches).
Others, like myself, are driven by reason (almost annoyingly according to sooo many of my friends over the years. I wear it as a star).
Those driven by emotion, are always ignorant, because they never read beyond the headline, but you can reason with them. However, it's a slow process and doesn't always 'stick'.
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What you describe, applies to a part of humanity, who are more driven by emotion. This is how people like Murdoch make their money (and churches).
Others, like myself, are driven by reason (almost annoyingly according to sooo many of my friends over the years. I wear it as a star).
Those driven by emotion, are always ignorant, because they never read beyond the headline, but you can reason with them. However, it's a slow process and doesn't always 'stick'.
@gsymon @subrealz @Kristian_Kiehling
What I was trying to convey is that even intelligent and educated individuals are prone to fall for propaganda.
The market of opinions is like a MacDonald. It offers a quick fix for your belly and an endless craving for more for your brain.
Whoever you are, it is much more difficult to cook for yourself. Pick a dish, get the ingredients, prepare and cook something (that you’ll eat in few minutes).
Manipulating (sometimes clumsily) facts, concepts, and ideas to create an opinion of your own requires a certain set of skills that you have to train on a regular basis. Very much like cooking.
Sourcing the products, discern freshness and quality, balancing the tastes (go easy on spice and/or salt
), make an homogeneous, palatable and easy to digest dish, is not that difficult, but mostly overlooked, for a number of reasons. 
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling I don't understand the "For the left: NATO caused this". What is the chain-of-thought here, and why would especially the left fall for this?
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@Kristian_Kiehling
Negotiating an end to this shitty war before more people have to die would not be "doing nothing". But this hasn't been attempted since April 2024.Please outline your totally realistic alternative? Is it to fight until the unconditional surrender of Russia and collapse of its government? In your dreams.
@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling when negotiations brought peace, they most times happened in secret, moderated by 3. and 4. parties.
The governments can't negotiate in public, because every statement will be criticized and abused by other actors on both sides. This weakens their positions, and makes it impossible, to make compromises.
So, we simply don't know, what serious negotiations happen, and if they happen.
Negotiations in the face of the world, are always used for propaganda. -
@Kristian_Kiehling I don't understand the "For the left: NATO caused this". What is the chain-of-thought here, and why would especially the left fall for this?
@erwinrossen I suppose you’ve never had to deal with American tanks. I envy you.
I am from Poland—a country that, following World War II, ended up in the Soviet sphere of influence with the consent of the USA and Great Britain. After the collapse of the USSR, the former Eastern Bloc countries quickly and voluntarily broke away from the Warsaw Pact and sought out a different alliance on their own—one that would, above all, protect them from Russia’s "care."
American tanks lectured me on how my country had been "looked after" by Russia and how good I’d had it in the Eastern Bloc. It wasn't good, yet I was labeled a reactionary. Russia’s "care" looked like this: they took Poland’s war reparations from Germany, looted factories, and even hauled away railway tracks. NATO provoked Russia into war. The fact that Central and Eastern European countries joined voluntarily (unlike with the Warsaw Pact) is considered irrelevant. -
"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling of course, it's always russian propaganda. In fact no pacifist movement has ever existed before putin...
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@Kristian_Kiehling of course, it's always russian propaganda. In fact no pacifist movement has ever existed before putin...
@ren196
The history of the peace movement in the US and Europe is rife with russian and other state-organised subversion. This makes sense because attackers always try to appear as victims in order to discourage others from coming to the real victims' aid.https://www.soviethistorylessons.com/bukovsky-peace-movement
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@Kristian_Kiehling
Negotiating an end to this shitty war before more people have to die would not be "doing nothing". But this hasn't been attempted since April 2024.Please outline your totally realistic alternative? Is it to fight until the unconditional surrender of Russia and collapse of its government? In your dreams.
@Julian Todd ruSSia doesn't want negotiations. ruSSia want unconditional surrender of Ukraine and extermination of Ukrainian nation, language and history(as always last 350 years). So good luck with negotiation with ruSSia. -
You may not care about the human victims of russian terror, but surely you will be concerned that the russians are not only killing, raping, abducting, torturing and maiming, but also destroying the environment in the largest genocidal war of conquest since 1945.
https://www.planetarysecurityinitiative.org/news/climate-damage-caused-russias-war-ukraine-2
@Kristian_Kiehling Why would you think I don't care? I do not insist either that you don't care about the billion people that scientists predict will die until 2100, which I think is an underestimate. Don't start with assumptions.
I can acknowledge that Russia is destroying the environment and still insist "but Russia" has the same delaying power like "but China".
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@Kristian_Kiehling @Canalbaobab
The Rwanda genocidal war as killed more than 800000. This is more than Russians and Ukrainians combined in the current conflict. Also try to not use the term genocidal lightly, it’s weakening your point.
I can understand the hatred for Russians that you have, but you have to understand that most of them are just brainwashed. Like those guys in Israel, or MAGAts.
This is political manipulation.@subrealz @Kristian_Kiehling @Canalbaobab Genocidal can refer to intention, to attitude, not just to outcomes. Who doubts that Russian denial of the legitimacy Ukrainian language, culture and autonomy as well as its historic slaughter of Ukrainians is genocidal. Russians and vatniks.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling doesnt looks like contradictory statements even if its all lie
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling It's much easier to win a war if the enemy thinks there is no point in fighting.
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@ren196
The history of the peace movement in the US and Europe is rife with russian and other state-organised subversion. This makes sense because attackers always try to appear as victims in order to discourage others from coming to the real victims' aid.https://www.soviethistorylessons.com/bukovsky-peace-movement
@Kristian_Kiehling @ren196 A pacifist would disagree that more violence constitutes ‘aid’ in the first place.
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@erwinrossen I suppose you’ve never had to deal with American tanks. I envy you.
I am from Poland—a country that, following World War II, ended up in the Soviet sphere of influence with the consent of the USA and Great Britain. After the collapse of the USSR, the former Eastern Bloc countries quickly and voluntarily broke away from the Warsaw Pact and sought out a different alliance on their own—one that would, above all, protect them from Russia’s "care."
American tanks lectured me on how my country had been "looked after" by Russia and how good I’d had it in the Eastern Bloc. It wasn't good, yet I was labeled a reactionary. Russia’s "care" looked like this: they took Poland’s war reparations from Germany, looted factories, and even hauled away railway tracks. NATO provoked Russia into war. The fact that Central and Eastern European countries joined voluntarily (unlike with the Warsaw Pact) is considered irrelevant.@morton I understand everything you say, but still don't get how that would mean that NATO provoked the war. I am missing the possible chain-of-thought here. I understand that you also don't think this is true, but I wouldn't understand why that is even a line that resonates with (Western) people.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling
Weapons do prolong the war, so bomb every single Russian weapons factory. -
@Kristian_Kiehling
Negotiating an end to this shitty war before more people have to die would not be "doing nothing". But this hasn't been attempted since April 2024.Please outline your totally realistic alternative? Is it to fight until the unconditional surrender of Russia and collapse of its government? In your dreams.
@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling Impressive how people can just ignore all facts and pretend Ukraine isn't constantly trying to negotiate an end. There was even the letter from Zelenskyy to Putin just a few months ago.
It would be good if more people realized that the US and the UK are the main cause for countries like Iran to reach for nukes now. Iran even brings up the Budapest memorandum themselves for doing so.
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@Kristian_Kiehling @ren196 A pacifist would disagree that more violence constitutes ‘aid’ in the first place.
this is why pacifism is considered by many to be de facto fascist
"when asked what the Jews should do when they were taken to concentration camps, Gandhi said they should go willingly, their forced mass suicide itself constituting an unanswerable critique of the Nazis."
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/asia/india/52242/gandhi-and-the-jews
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this is why pacifism is considered by many to be de facto fascist
"when asked what the Jews should do when they were taken to concentration camps, Gandhi said they should go willingly, their forced mass suicide itself constituting an unanswerable critique of the Nazis."
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/asia/india/52242/gandhi-and-the-jews
@Kristian_Kiehling @ren196 I think it’s very sad if you can’t imagine any way of helping someone other than bombing them.
