This is a modern motherfucking website.
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This is a modern motherfucking website.
And it’s still fucking perfect.
“But developer experience!” Well, I'm a developer, and my experience is significantly worsened when I can't even reason about how some big complicated contraption is generating my HTML! Static pages FTW.
And yeah, I do use a static site generator. But I am able to reason about the HTML it generates, because (1) I wrote the generator, and (2) it doesn't generate anything other than what I tell it to generate. Which is why I cringe when I see Next.js on https://jamstack.org/generators/.
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@lproven Nice article, even though the "superiority" of webp and avif has been greatly exaggerated.
My org's site has an 86kB JPEG that compresses down to a 28kB WebP without noticeably degrading the image. In another case, 233kB JPEG compresses down to 121kB WebP.
I can live without it, of course. If I must use classic JPEG for some reason, then I will. But I am impressed.
That said, these are not hand-tuned JPEGs. They're just blindly compressed at quality 92. I could do better by hand-tuning with GIMP's quality settings. But I probably won't beat WebP.
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@2something @lproven its still unfortunate that they both carry that name, and that the wrong one is widely known.
@nieuemma@mastodon.de @2something@transfem.social @lproven@social.vivaldi.net which one will win
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@lproven It is a phenomenon, that certain kinds of people must avoid the simple, and instead make things needlessly complicated and inefficient, in their need to feel powerful and special. Or something. The psychology is baffling.
I'm reminded of the time when I bolted a Java VM to my IRC client so I could run IRC scripts written in Java and BeanShell.
It was big. It was complicated. It probably quadrupled my IRC client's memory usage. It was complete overkill for its intended purpose, namely slapping people around a bit with something other than a large trout.
But it was fun to write and fun to use.
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@lproven @idiot Yeah... right. Uploading a .avif file to the Mastodon instance I'm using right now gives me "500 Error processing thumbnail for uploaded media".
Are you trying to say that all Mastodon sites are the "dogshit", or do you simply not realize how foolish and childish you are?
Uploading webp images here does work. If webp files are smaller or better or not is of course up to those who create them. Pic related becomes 68K as a 90% quality webp, 484K as a lossless webp, 184K as a jpeg saved with a 95% quality setting and 476K with a 100% quality setting.
A 90% quality webp is fine if you assume that nobody will ever do anything other than display the image in a web browser, but that's not always the case. I suspect that a lot of "news outlets" are serving .avif files compressed to death intentionally in order to discourage anyone from ever doing anything with their images. That's not a good thing.
That's a Mastodon bug, not anything wrong with AVIF per se, and was fixed a week ago. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/40541
As for serving images compressed to death, may I introduce you to JPEG? That is by no means a new phenomenon.
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This is a modern motherfucking website.
And it’s still fucking perfect.
All good. Except that the nested WWW graphic does not render on really old FF. It is ignored.
But, the text is still there and readable. As expected.
Addendum: Same problem on old Chrome.
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@lproven >I don't like the websites you use and I think you should be immolated as immediately as possible.
VERY convincing argument to deepthroat Sundar's footlong cock. Got any other ones, or are we not mature enough to discuss the demerits of picture file extensions?…Is there an actual reason why 4chan rejects WebP?
I would think the operator of an image board, of all things, would appreciate a new and improved image compression method.
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@chaekyung @lproven @idiot says the person posting an AI slop image that's already a pile of residual latent noise mush that compresses like ass.
A person whose profile complains of biosphere collapse, no less.
One would think someone concerned with biosphere collapse wouldn't be using one of the machines most notorious for accelerating it, at least not for a purpose so trivial as to generate a purely-decorative and largely-malapropos picture to attach to a debate on Fedi.
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…Is there an actual reason why 4chan rejects WebP?
I would think the operator of an image board, of all things, would appreciate a new and improved image compression method.
@argv_minus_one @lproven @chaekyung If I had the insider information to actually answer that, I'd be making more money than I am now, but I assume it's some combination of legacy PHP spaghetti code, being spooked after getting hacked over filetype shenanigans earlier in the year, and Hiro being a lazy piece of shit that just wants to hang out with his streaming buddies. A lot of users hold it in contempt but it's hard to say if everyone would change their opinions overnight if it were magically supported tomorrow, yet I suspect not. -
@argv_minus_one @lproven @chaekyung If I had the insider information to actually answer that, I'd be making more money than I am now, but I assume it's some combination of legacy PHP spaghetti code, being spooked after getting hacked over filetype shenanigans earlier in the year, and Hiro being a lazy piece of shit that just wants to hang out with his streaming buddies. A lot of users hold it in contempt but it's hard to say if everyone would change their opinions overnight if it were magically supported tomorrow, yet I suspect not.@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Come to think of it, of all the imageboards I've browsed (-booru style and -chan style,) I don't think any of the popular ones support either webps or avifs. I've only ever seen the usual suspects: jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, and I remember seeing flash files a long long time ago on sankakucomplex and maybe rule34, but who knows if those are still hosted. I was gonna say that webps being better compressed probably wouldn't make a huge dent in 4chan's image hosting given that the website is hosting like a terabyte of content at a time, but 4chan is transient, when a thread falls of the archive catalog it's gone, and so is its content. If boorus aren't hosting webps, where the purpose is long-term image storage and transfer, it's either a lack of willlingness to accept liability, or a total contempt for the format.
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@argv_minus_one @lproven @chaekyung If I had the insider information to actually answer that, I'd be making more money than I am now, but I assume it's some combination of legacy PHP spaghetti code, being spooked after getting hacked over filetype shenanigans earlier in the year, and Hiro being a lazy piece of shit that just wants to hang out with his streaming buddies. A lot of users hold it in contempt but it's hard to say if everyone would change their opinions overnight if it were magically supported tomorrow, yet I suspect not.
I mean, I do enjoy hanging out and chatting. It's understandable.
Hard to imagine how you get hacked by just accepting an image and then repeating it to anyone who wants it, though.
Vulnerable thumbnail generator, maybe? Seems to me like the solution to that is to generate thumbnails on the client side, then upload the thumbnail along with the full-size image. That way, any vulnerability in the thumbnail generator enables hackers only to hack themselves.
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@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Come to think of it, of all the imageboards I've browsed (-booru style and -chan style,) I don't think any of the popular ones support either webps or avifs. I've only ever seen the usual suspects: jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, and I remember seeing flash files a long long time ago on sankakucomplex and maybe rule34, but who knows if those are still hosted. I was gonna say that webps being better compressed probably wouldn't make a huge dent in 4chan's image hosting given that the website is hosting like a terabyte of content at a time, but 4chan is transient, when a thread falls of the archive catalog it's gone, and so is its content. If boorus aren't hosting webps, where the purpose is long-term image storage and transfer, it's either a lack of willlingness to accept liability, or a total contempt for the format.
I mean, if WebP halves image size (which in my case it does, if not better), then that cuts the server's storage requirements in half. Seems like a big deal to me.
What sort of liability would they be accepting? Patent liability? If they're accepting WebM then they've already accepted liability for whatever patents might apply to WebP.
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I mean, I do enjoy hanging out and chatting. It's understandable.
Hard to imagine how you get hacked by just accepting an image and then repeating it to anyone who wants it, though.
Vulnerable thumbnail generator, maybe? Seems to me like the solution to that is to generate thumbnails on the client side, then upload the thumbnail along with the full-size image. That way, any vulnerability in the thumbnail generator enables hackers only to hack themselves.
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I can't remember if it was a malformed pdf or a malformed image, but something running on the server was an ancient, exploitable version, and someone uploaded a malformed file in order to get access to the website. I want to say it was an old imagemagick version that was generating thumbnails but I really can't remember without looking. The month-long downtime that followed was probably the devs scrambling to monkeypatch both yotsuba and all of the binaries it reaches out while operating. It's not like the webring imageboards that are all running infinity forks where everything's free software, 4chan's been running the same crusty old php codebase which was probably legacy code when moot stole it from 2chan. -
I mean, if WebP halves image size (which in my case it does, if not better), then that cuts the server's storage requirements in half. Seems like a big deal to me.
What sort of liability would they be accepting? Patent liability? If they're accepting WebM then they've already accepted liability for whatever patents might apply to WebP.
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Yeah, but like I said earlier in the thread, nobody (no end user) WANTS to use webp. It didn't thumbnail properly in Windows Explorer the last time I was dumb enough to save a webp on a Windows install, and Apple holds contempt for everyone outside of their organization so it certainly doesn't work right on macOS or iOS. It probably works fine on Android and half-works on $YOUR_FAVORITE_LIBERATED_TOOLKIT_FILEPICKER. Again, being really good for developers doesn't make it a slam dunk for the people being served the image, other than "look at this with your eyeballs and do nothing else with it ever." -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I can't remember if it was a malformed pdf or a malformed image, but something running on the server was an ancient, exploitable version, and someone uploaded a malformed file in order to get access to the website. I want to say it was an old imagemagick version that was generating thumbnails but I really can't remember without looking. The month-long downtime that followed was probably the devs scrambling to monkeypatch both yotsuba and all of the binaries it reaches out while operating. It's not like the webring imageboards that are all running infinity forks where everything's free software, 4chan's been running the same crusty old php codebase which was probably legacy code when moot stole it from 2chan.
So yeah, a vulnerable server-side thumbnail generator. Welp.
Does 4chan have unofficial client apps? That's the only reason I can think of to not generate thumbnails on the client side…
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@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Yeah, but like I said earlier in the thread, nobody (no end user) WANTS to use webp. It didn't thumbnail properly in Windows Explorer the last time I was dumb enough to save a webp on a Windows install, and Apple holds contempt for everyone outside of their organization so it certainly doesn't work right on macOS or iOS. It probably works fine on Android and half-works on $YOUR_FAVORITE_LIBERATED_TOOLKIT_FILEPICKER. Again, being really good for developers doesn't make it a slam dunk for the people being served the image, other than "look at this with your eyeballs and do nothing else with it ever."
Speak for yourself. I appreciate being able to do alpha and lossy compression at the same time.
I've only needed that a few times, but last time I did, I only had PNG and JPEG and SVG to work with, so I had to embed a JPEG image and a PNG alpha mask into an SVG and use its mask feature to pull off the effect. It was not pleasant. At all. Good riddance.
As for Windows/macOS not supporting it: why are you still using Windows/macOS?
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So yeah, a vulnerable server-side thumbnail generator. Welp.
Does 4chan have unofficial client apps? That's the only reason I can think of to not generate thumbnails on the client side…
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven It's exclusively unofficial client apps, and anyone who isn't using one of the unofficial mobile apps is likely using a comprehensive userscript to supplement the website's functionality. There's a half-assed half-baked unfinished subdomain for a progressive web app that was intended for mobile users whose development got abandoned like ten years ago. -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven It's exclusively unofficial client apps, and anyone who isn't using one of the unofficial mobile apps is likely using a comprehensive userscript to supplement the website's functionality. There's a half-assed half-baked unfinished subdomain for a progressive web app that was intended for mobile users whose development got abandoned like ten years ago.
That would be a problem.
I'm guessing it isn't feasible to just tell all the app developers to start also submitting thumbnails?
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Speak for yourself. I appreciate being able to do alpha and lossy compression at the same time.
I've only needed that a few times, but last time I did, I only had PNG and JPEG and SVG to work with, so I had to embed a JPEG image and a PNG alpha mask into an SVG and use its mask feature to pull off the effect. It was not pleasant. At all. Good riddance.
As for Windows/macOS not supporting it: why are you still using Windows/macOS?
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven The front page right now says there's 231-THOUSAND current users, however they're measuring that. I'm sure a lot of people are using their phones these days, but nevertheless, it's not me that you have to convince to switch. But even if my system supports it, I'm still not going to use it. -
This is a modern motherfucking website.
And it’s still fucking perfect.
I am annoyed by how much overlap there is between JSON-LD/Microdata, Open Graph, and standard HTML <title>/<meta name=description>/<link rel=icon>/etc.
It's my understanding that Open Graph readers will fall back to standard HTML for anything that doesn't have a specific Open Graph tag, but as far as I can tell, JSON-LD/Microdata readers don't.
