I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
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Well, for what I understand, sovereignty and autonomy are not equivalent.
Sovereignty is a more legal sort of term and stronger than autonomy. Autonomy is part of sovereignty but the opposite is not true. I mean, in order to attain sovereignty you need autonomy, it defines it.@hadon @jwildeboer @tante I would say, autonomy, as the word part "auto" suggests, can apply to people and institutions on their own. You can have autonomy from X.
Sovereignty includes the word "reign". You can not reign without an object, you can have sovereignty over X.
As such, the two words are completely different in the way they describe a power struggle. Focus on autonomy and you describe a situation where you want to be free from something (e.g. Big Tech, or US tech, or whatever). Focus on sovereignty and you (and not someone else) should have power over something, typically via property, law, infrastructure involved.
I think both can still be used from a right-wing perspective of (EU) nationalism, but autonomy is more open to anarchist anti-capitalist principles.
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It's also a lot more accurate (IMHO) with respect to what the actual goals are/should be.
@datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I'm not convinced. I don't want to be "autonomous": I want the capability to *act* in an autonomous/sovereign manner, yes.
The problem is that the right intentionally reduces "sovereign" to isolationism/nationalism. We kinda need to resist that, because they'll otherwise do it to any other term as well ("independence" is a similar candidate).
Maybe throw in an adjective & re-order? "Sovereign digital collaboration".
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I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante Brexit was for "Sovrintee" which has made the term pretty toxic here.
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They may have uttered it, but where I come from (DK/EU) it's mostly used about provinces and former colonies having had enough.
And that, to me, is the perfect analogy of people finally demanding freedom from the enshitifcators.
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I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
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I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante i totally understand the sentiment but tactically as you suggest it is working wonders, look at what the
government are doing ( #linux ). I see a lot of people in higher places finally taking the #orangethreat seriously and making big moves very fast. The #EU is also all over that language & in the context of actual invasion threats ( #greenland ) & "simple" US tech dependency of public IT, it makes sense. Funnily enough, it does NOT resonate with the Brits. Maybe no land invasion trauma -
@datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I'm not convinced. I don't want to be "autonomous": I want the capability to *act* in an autonomous/sovereign manner, yes.
The problem is that the right intentionally reduces "sovereign" to isolationism/nationalism. We kinda need to resist that, because they'll otherwise do it to any other term as well ("independence" is a similar candidate).
Maybe throw in an adjective & re-order? "Sovereign digital collaboration".
@larsmb @datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I would like to continue to use the word sovereign and within the first 2min of every presentation mention that "sovereign" is not "national" (copied this from @sovtechfund talks I heard). Hope it's clear then.
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@tante I agree! Digital independence is a better term imho
@thanius @tante Though it's always the question who is independent from who. The way it's coded e.g. in the US-american independence day, it marked a shift from colony to sovereign oppressors and a free country for white men to genocide the indigenous people and legal slavery. As such, using independence as a word seems to me quite inconsiderate towards BIPoC.
But maybe it describes quite well what is happening, if it's a white movement where people want to escape other white people's power to use the means of oppression themselves.
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@tante I've, too, been concerned about "sovereignty" being too susceptible to nationalist capture. (Which is probably also why it appeals to certain parties despite often funding more progressive projects?)
I'm also in favor of a different term for the concept that is less so.
However, I also think that it sucks that we yield terms (which actually describes exactly what's intended) to the right-wing national so easily and then are forced to evade
@larsmb I agree when it comes to terms that are useful/good (think Freedom). I'm not willing to fight for "sovereignty"
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@tante i totally understand the sentiment but tactically as you suggest it is working wonders, look at what the
government are doing ( #linux ). I see a lot of people in higher places finally taking the #orangethreat seriously and making big moves very fast. The #EU is also all over that language & in the context of actual invasion threats ( #greenland ) & "simple" US tech dependency of public IT, it makes sense. Funnily enough, it does NOT resonate with the Brits. Maybe no land invasion traumaTotally agree.
Besides, it's IMO overdue to *reclaim* the word sovereignty as it's, an instantly easily understood term across the EU.
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I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante >The German fascist party AfD -
@jwildeboer There is not one concept that the German language can not make sound very "gestelzt"
And I agree: Using more terms that conservative Germany feels icky with is probably a good thing.@tante
Digitale Autonome, was? 🧐 Verfassungsschutz, Hubschraubereinsatz!!!1
@jwildeboer -
@tante
Digitale Autonome, was? 🧐 Verfassungsschutz, Hubschraubereinsatz!!!1
@jwildeboer@menos @tante Foyer des Arts, 1982, Hubschraubereinsatz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pAr1IMiP6A&list=RD2pAr1IMiP6A&start_radio=1 -
I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante
See also Brexit in UK claimed to be about sovereignty, but was Russian funded and more about money laundering.I think it depends on context, real motive and who is using the word.
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@larsmb @datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I would like to continue to use the word sovereign and within the first 2min of every presentation mention that "sovereign" is not "national" (copied this from @sovtechfund talks I heard). Hope it's clear then.
@jzakotnik From an italian friend "never say sovereign here. It will immediately put you in the wrong, far-right corner" I will also continue to use "sovereign" for the top-down approach. But digital autonomy for the bottom-up way. That's a nice and helpful distinction for me. @larsmb @datenwolf @kejster @tante @sovtechfund
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@jwildeboer that one is better, yes. I also like "digital capacity to act" or "digital agency"
@tante @jwildeboer digital liberty? (But specifically not digital freedom, as that brings other slippery slopes).
Liberty is often associated with being "free" from coercion and external forces, so in a way to be able to "act autonomously" as you mentioned.
It also has the momentum of many OSS projects with "libre" in their name. -
I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante Hört doch Mal endlich alle auf vor diesem verfickten rechten Nazipack zu kuschen. Über wie viele Begriffe und Symbole etc. wollt ihr noch diskutieren und nach angeblich besseren oder so viel intelligenteren Ausdrücken suchen, statt dagegen zu halten. Merkt ihr nicht welches Signal ihr damit sendet und damit ständig diese perfide und sehr bewusste Taktik dieser drecks Bullies, immer und immer wieder bestätigt.
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I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.
The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".
Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.
@tante That's funny. Most of the people pushing digital identity and digital sovereignty have far-left politics.
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@tante I am slowly moving towards saying digital autonomy instead. Which is more applicable than sovereignty, as that term is more geared towards states/governments, whereas autonomy applies to people, groups, companies and authorities.
I go for Digital Independence myself.
Independence has the right vibe, at least for (US) Americans, and avoids the Sovereignty bro coding.
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