I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall For unclear reasons, I have been seeing things as externalities everywhere recently. This is one of the biggest ones.
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I spent some time about 20 years ago talking to someone who wanted to contribute to one of my projects who didn't understand why he should be polite. He viewed politeness as a set of arbitrary rules that made no sense to him. This forced me to think of the underlying commonality between things that I considered polite. That was what I came up with and I've found it a useful framing since. It's also helped me discard some notions of polite behaviour that really are just cultural conditioning and don't benefit anyone else if I follow them.
@david_chisnall Aaah right, thanks for this background! Yeah, it already seems a brilliant framing, I think, and I'm definitely looking to keep it in mind.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall Also works the other way round: if person 2 is much better at doing task B than person 1 is, it makes sense for person 2 to do it so person 1 can concentrate on task A instead of doing task B badly. (We pay a cleaner because they're better at cleaning than we are.)
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall That's such a fascinating definition of rudeness! I never thought of it that way.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
Heh:
"If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude."
Heh. If you can't test your own code, then you're not a real programmer. You're not a programmer and I don't want to work with you. Ugh.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall I think almost every single person I've known in meat space for the past few decades are now LLM users in one way or another and are just fine as they have always been.
We had much the same kinda sermons regarding getting drunk on writing, printing presses and computers, it's fine.
"Computer users" or "Generic font slop users" perhaps a better target than LLM users.
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A anderslund@expressional.social shared this topic
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@david_chisnall I think almost every single person I've known in meat space for the past few decades are now LLM users in one way or another and are just fine as they have always been.
We had much the same kinda sermons regarding getting drunk on writing, printing presses and computers, it's fine.
"Computer users" or "Generic font slop users" perhaps a better target than LLM users.
@groot @david_chisnall I actually really want to know who was complaining about printing presses. This is a meme but they only actual history I've seen say that broadsheets were relatively easy to censor [The 30 years war: Europes tragedy Peter H Wilson] because presses were hard to move and Gutenberg went broke because he didn't figure out how to scale [Interview with @adapalmer ]
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall Corollary: rules of politeness originated as embedded shorthand to balance peoples' time and attention?
Therefore old fashioned and outdated rules are predicated on shorthand whose need no longer exists?
For example, social status used to be essential information in daily life, with titles used as part of normal communication to convey what level of attention was socially appropriate.
Now many titles are a relic rather than an important indicator. We still use special honorifics in formal circumstances ("Your honor" in a courtroom), but it's fine for me to address my Christmas card to my friend the academic with just her name even though a student might be expected to use the full title of "Professor".
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@david_chisnall Corollary: rules of politeness originated as embedded shorthand to balance peoples' time and attention?
Therefore old fashioned and outdated rules are predicated on shorthand whose need no longer exists?
For example, social status used to be essential information in daily life, with titles used as part of normal communication to convey what level of attention was socially appropriate.
Now many titles are a relic rather than an important indicator. We still use special honorifics in formal circumstances ("Your honor" in a courtroom), but it's fine for me to address my Christmas card to my friend the academic with just her name even though a student might be expected to use the full title of "Professor".
@Robotistry I had not considered any of that, but it's a fascinating theory.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall great framing. In a similar way, I always use the example of LLM use as equivalent to dumping your trash out the window into the street. Sure, the LLM user saved time and hassle, but made the situation worse for everyone else in time and environment. Now someone has to clean up an exploded bag of trash in the public.
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@groot @david_chisnall I actually really want to know who was complaining about printing presses. This is a meme but they only actual history I've seen say that broadsheets were relatively easy to censor [The 30 years war: Europes tragedy Peter H Wilson] because presses were hard to move and Gutenberg went broke because he didn't figure out how to scale [Interview with @adapalmer ]
@Ribby @david_chisnall @adapalmer Conrad Gessner, in the line of Socrates, was warning about the confusing abundance of books but the novel mechanical devilry was rather intimately linked to the hysterical memes of maleficarum spreading like wildfire, and some even complained whilst being burnt alive.
The USA a solid example too, the whole country still hasn't even started the recovery process from back when they carpet bombed the nation in the little 66 book KJV's as a social experiment.
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@david_chisnall This all boils down to:" If you didn't care enough about this to write it, why should I care enough to read it?" To make it worse, all too often the sender doesn't even care enough to read it either, so you just get the unfiltered response to some prompt. And I agree, that is a deeply disrespectful waste of my time.
@Gjoel @david_chisnall it is so begging for the Hitchens
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall @tforcworc When I see the acronym LLM, roll the "Naked Video" theme tune, and cue the Baldy Man.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
And all this coming from CEOs who believe their time is worth 300x and more than that of other human beings.
It's pure, rampant sociopathy.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@shapr “impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's” is a special case of my theory of evil: evil is when one person pursues their own goals heedless of the loss or suffering it brings to others.
The behavior Chisnall describes is evil on a very small scale, like littering, but it's different in degree, not in kind.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall bonus: If some kind of quantitative productivity tracking is going on, and the "productivity" of people pushing 10000+ line piles of slop skyrocket while the "productivity" of the poor sods who have to review it craters.
(Personally, the only use cases of LLMs that don't make me want to pour bleach directly into my brain are the least "generative", let alone "agentic", ones. Eg. looking for potential bugs, or providing suggestions.)
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
Let me tell you a small story: Once, in University, Pre-LLM-time, I handed in an essay. I got a bad grade. I had worked very hard for that essay, but the superior thought I had been sloppy. And that sloppiness indicated I had not worked hard, and so the bad grade was justified. I didn't know what to say, but after the talk, I had a meltdown and cried. What he didn't know, I do have a spelling problem. I cared a LOT and worked very hard and the mistakes he found were just the ones that were left over after all the work and effort I poured in.
Therefore, I would strongly suggest to not make tool-usage (llm or spellchecker or thesaurus etc) an indicator for politeness. Nor should the quality of the result be an indicator for politeness or effort. The intent, which is unlike harder to measure, would be, in my eyes, the best indicator for politeness.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall
If a client uses a generative model to extrude a guide image and expects you to put effort into redrawing it to launder their plagiarism, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude. -
I spent some time about 20 years ago talking to someone who wanted to contribute to one of my projects who didn't understand why he should be polite. He viewed politeness as a set of arbitrary rules that made no sense to him. This forced me to think of the underlying commonality between things that I considered polite. That was what I came up with and I've found it a useful framing since. It's also helped me discard some notions of polite behaviour that really are just cultural conditioning and don't benefit anyone else if I follow them.
It is literally "conversational cancer" as the LLMs were trained off of the formerly healthy human conversations and the growth of this kind of response leads unavoidably to collapse of the body if it is not impeded.
Unlike other kinds of cancer, the best treatment is a sustained campaign of shaming.
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I was trying to work out yesterday why LLM users annoy me so much and it came back to my basic notion of rudeness: impolite behaviour stems from assuming that your time is worth more than other people's.
If someone doesn't bother to write coherent words in a message to you so that they can type faster at the cost of your comprehension speed, they're trading your time for theirs and that's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to create more words from fewer ideas, that saves them time in careful expression at the cost of more work for you. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write code that doesn't work and expects other people to help debugging it, then they're saying that it isn't worth their time to learn but it is worth your time to help them. That's rude.
If someone uses an LLM to write some code that looks like it works and expects you to put effort into reviewing a PR, again, they're saving work for themselves at the expense of your time. That's rude.
Almost all LLM uses are like this: they save the user time (at least, in the short term) by making more work for someone else. They're machines optimised for creating rudeness.
There are a bunch of places where you do trade different people's time. In particular, if tasks A and B need doing, but person 1 can do either and person 2 can do only task B, then it makes sense for person 2 to do task B so that person 1 can do task A. That's not because person 1's time is more valuable, it's because person 1 doing task A is more valuable. It's not that your time is more valuable than the cleaner's time, but the cleaner doing their job means that you can spend my time doing more valuable tasks.
@david_chisnall thank you. It's amazing how many people don't seem to understand this simple concept. I saw a thread yesterday where someone was complaining they were banned from Wikipedia and their appeal was rejected because they used an LLM to write it. They didn't seem to grasp how rude it is to waste the time of an unpaid volunteer and thought it shouldn't make any difference; it absolutely does
