They pay $34 for burgers.
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@mekkaokereke I mean the obvious retort is - of course their childcare isn't free. What do you think taxes are?
@JessTheUnstill @mekkaokereke Also: "If you don't feel that the taxes that rich people pay are enough that they deserve whatever government services they receive, raise their rates until the feeling goes away."
Funny, by the way, that I never hear this about taxpayer-subsidized facilities used largely by the rich, like, say, Teterboro airport.
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@mekkaokereke The "but then rich people get more of it" argument consistently feels like concern-trolling designed to provide an excuse to clamp down on means-testing, which of course makes the problem worse because rich people always have ways to get around bureaucratic obstacles.
(cf. buying a second house in another school-zone so you don't have to send your kids to the "bad" (underfunded) school.)
@woozle @mekkaokereke Espesh since rich people always get more of everything anyway, so wtf? Let it go.
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@deirdrebeth @Fishercat @mekkaokereke That poor kids might get something that rich kids get.
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@blainecross @mekkaokereke
When I saw how well it works locally - the general health of students went up, as well as attendance, grades, and graduation rates - I was completely won over to the idea of free lunches (and breakfasts) for all school children. I cheered when I heard what Walz did in Minnesota.@realtegan @blainecross @mekkaokereke
it's one of the cheapest and most humane ways to raise graduation rates & test scores, lower absenteeism.
if someone is all bent about "someone taking advantage of free school meals", that tells me more about that person than about problems with the program.
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@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke Is it even *possible* for anyone (a child in particular) to be undeserving?
Seems like a pretty vital assumption that the answer is yes, but I’m not convinced.
I *might* be willing to concede that people who can afford to (and do) put effort into keeping others from eating are [themselves undeserving].
That's about it tho.
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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke Other relevant ways to reframe the debate:
"They pay $34 for burgers. Should their doormen, cooks, nannies, and drivers be able to access free child care conveniently near their workplaces?"
and
"They pay $34 for burgers. Should they be paying more in property tax, too?"
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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke journalists clearly have nothing interesting to cover right now, and the NYT needs to appease the conservatives that kept David Brooks on the payroll for 20+ years
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@realtegan @mekkaokereke Free school lunches for all is what Democrats and Gov. Walz did in Minnesota.
@realtegan @blainecross @mekkaokereke Philadelphia School District also provides free lunch and breakfast to all students.
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@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.
We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.
@realtegan @mekkaokereke much easier and better to have progressive taxation than means tested services.
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@realtegan @mekkaokereke this was how it was at all my schools elementary through high school; it sure helps with shame around needing help too. kids should never be made to feel bad about not having money.
And then there's the question of how "food" and "lunch" are defined.
I was a gradeschooler in the early-mid '80s, in a rich-to-very-rich suburban U.S. school district. The lunches – not free – were high in processed fat, white starch, sugar, salt, and additives. Hamburgers with a bunch of filler; hot dogs, gas station-spec nachos, "french bread pizza", chikkin nuggets, dubious cheese, boiled-to-death canned vegetables, sugary canned fruit cocktail, etc. Filled up my belly (and enlarged it), but nutrition? LOLnope. I'm sure they've only got worse in the United States of Ketchup Counts As A Vegetable. Oh yeah, they also offered a "brown bag special" at lower cost, which was a couple slices of questionable bologna and a square of plastic cheez with imitation mayonnaise, on white bread.
Compare that slop to this what they somehow manage to do in Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITzRFAfJsLA
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@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.
We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.
@realtegan Yes! Now do UBI.
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@woozle @mekkaokereke Espesh since rich people always get more of everything anyway, so wtf? Let it go.
And, like, they should be paying more than enough taxes to cover the costs of their usage of any public service many times over -- how else to make the budget work when we have such extreme inequality? So sure, they should get the benefits of it too.
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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke
Perfect!
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And, like, they should be paying more than enough taxes to cover the costs of their usage of any public service many times over -- how else to make the budget work when we have such extreme inequality? So sure, they should get the benefits of it too.
@woozle @mekkaokereke Their attitude is always, why should the poors get something they don’t pay for? In truth the lower & working classes pay most of the taxes.
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@woozle @mekkaokereke Their attitude is always, why should the poors get something they don’t pay for? In truth the lower & working classes pay most of the taxes.
I just wanna smack anyone who makes that argument in all seriousness.
Like omg people, do you want a civilization or not???
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@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith"The primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor."
- James Madison@Steve @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
And at least Madison thought this was a feature rather than a bug. In fact Madison's obsessive worry that in a democracy the majority of the poor might vote in laws that would protect them from capitalist predation, which after all is how he and his founding buddies made their dough, is why we have a republic rather than a democracy. He lays it all out in the open in Federalist 10.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/federalist-no-10/
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@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.
We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.
@realtegan @mekkaokereke yeah, we have a serious shortage of promoting the general welfare.
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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"Also the 3s program here requires applying for a list of schools and seeing which one you match with. We only applied to the 2 closest to us (we like the private one we're in enough to just stay in it instead if we need to commute for school) but some people will apply to a lot of them to get a seat.
This means that kids end up in the same class as others from different backgrounds which is a huge benefit that is not available in regular private daycares/preschools.
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@realtegan @mekkaokereke Sigh. I really hate the mindset of “what if someone undeserving benefits.”
So what? Especially when it involves children.
@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
Most American thing is making 100 people suffer to avoid 1 freeloader.
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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke I wonder if they'll ever contextualize the region though, you look at Walland, TN, folks look rich as hell until you take out Blackberry Farms.
Like, yea, Eric Prince owns property up that way, but my cousin Randy who sells lumber to subsidize his disability does to, and the district schools can still only afford to teach abstinenve sex-ed taught by a guy who claims to be a "born again virgin"
