We now note that that we do not waive our attribution requirements for Spritely Goblins, which are present in Apache v2 (and for that matter, CC BY, CC BY-SA, and most FOSS licenses) https://codeberg.org/spritely/goblins/pulls/998/files
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@bkuhn @copiesofcopies While I appreciate being forthcoming, you are correct, I don't agree with feeding the torment nexus to defeat the torment nexus. I think using Claude is just helping them build more torment nexus, while normalize a situation that puts us in a legally dubious situation where we were previously relatively legally strong, and eroding community trust and shared understanding in the process.
@cwebber @bkuhn @copiesofcopies
IMO even local models are currently unacceptable when they have been trained on unknown data, by untrustworthy people, using far more resource than any community will ever have access to, with a special privilege to ignore all IP considerations when it comes to accessing and storing their training set and using all web data that no one ever agreed to be used in such a way.
Training anything that way should still be regarded as "the largest ongoing intellectual property and labor theft" and ethically regarded as if in biology someone wanted to clone a human, but if someone creates a local model that fits on world-accessible consumer hardware (not just affordable to first world countries), trained on known data explicitly licensed for reuse (or public domain) maybe it will be time to look at the implications on society (in learning, community building, work for a start...) and collectively and democratically decide if it is worth putting resources in…
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We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop coming out of the closet as brain capacity losing LMAOO
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And we shed them as soon as it became practical to do so.
You will never find it practical to shed Claude, because:
1. you will never be able to afford the necessary hardware to do so (Moore's law is dead),
2. you will never obtain an adequate corpus of training data (because you, lacking billions of dollars, are actually subject to copyright), and
3. you will be prohibited by law to do so (because compliance with AI regulations costs billions).
@argv_minus_one @bkuhn @twipped @cwebber @copiesofcopies
“You will never be able to afford the hardware to do so” I know people running a model equivalent to top end Claude from ~6 months ago on €3.5k hardware. Not cheap, not awful.
2/3 I would almost certainly start from someone else’s model release
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@argv_minus_one @bkuhn @twipped @cwebber @copiesofcopies
“You will never be able to afford the hardware to do so” I know people running a model equivalent to top end Claude from ~6 months ago on €3.5k hardware. Not cheap, not awful.
2/3 I would almost certainly start from someone else’s model release
Did they *train* the model on that hardware? The model has to come from somewhere, and last I heard, that “somewhere” was billion-dollar data centers.
Also, how the heck did they get that kind of hardware for only €3.5k in the middle of the chipocalypse? I'd probably have to pay that much just to assemble a competent gaming PC.
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@cwebber Is this whole free software endeavor about producing more and faster, or is it about empowering people and fostering collectives?
This is the question those LLMs companies have forced us to answer, thereby breaking the alignment that existed so far between industry & “open source” on one hand, and people focusing and user freedom and autonomy.
@civodul @cwebber @copiesofcopies @bkuhn
Surely, this is one of the primary reasons genAI was released.
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@wwahammy makes a really good point, though. I think *outside of tech*, the response to LLM-gen-AI is very negative as companies inappropriately apply it to non-tech fields. At least that's what I see anecdotally with folks who don't work in tech.
The one exception I've seen is both human doctors & veterinarians — all of whom seem to be thrilled to let #LLMGenAI chart for them.
I give our vet permission to record the session but not my human doctor, FWIW.
@bkuhn @wwahammy @copiesofcopies @cwebber I appreciate this thread and everyone’s thoughts, just to let y’all know.
The mention of doctors reminds me of this piece, which I’ve been thinking about a lot this week: https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/122202
My own personal doctor may be an exception. She has sought a unique model that allows her to focus on care. I’m fairly sure she doesn’t like the robots.
I suspect many docs are enthusiastic re: robots because they think it can help free them for care.
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We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn
Everyone else has been nice and informative to you, so let me just add that you suck, your policies suck and you deserve the worst! Hope that helps. -
We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn @copiesofcopies gosh it's like you actually know you're doing something wrong, prompting you to appropriate the language of queer liberation because you need to be sneaky about TRUSTING LLM SLUDGE
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Did they *train* the model on that hardware? The model has to come from somewhere, and last I heard, that “somewhere” was billion-dollar data centers.
Also, how the heck did they get that kind of hardware for only €3.5k in the middle of the chipocalypse? I'd probably have to pay that much just to assemble a competent gaming PC.
@argv_minus_one @bkuhn @copiesofcopies @cwebber @twipped No, they didn’t train it. I personally do not currently feel a need to train something.
As for the hardware:
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We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn Respect for being open about it here, where it is intensely unpopular.
I don’t care about “proprietary.” What about intellectual property theft? What about damage to the environment? What about diversion of SO much resources away from things that help people and into things that help investors?
Every time someone uses it, especially as a technology leader who knows better than most, they signal that all those trade-offs are acceptable for the trivial, tepid benefit of writing bland text faster. And the benefit of firing people. And the benefit of wealth aggregation.
In my position, I have the financial means and the knowledge to fight against it. If those of us who CAN choose not to use it, instead choose to support it, how can we expect anyone else to make the pragmatic, better-for-everyone choice?
Nobody gets to hide behind “this is my personal choice and nobody should tell me otherwise.” If a person set their trash on fire in their yard in order to dispose of it, their personal preference doesn’t matter. That’s not ok. Burning fossil fuels to power the most catastrophically inefficient technology ever made is not a personal choice. Climate change affects generations to come, not just people alive today. AI today accelerates climate change. It’s super simple and absolutely directly causal.
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Btw I have heard at least one prominent FOSS person (I'm choosing to not fill their notifications here by identifying them) that nobody cares about attribution requirements (and particularly not enforcing them). But to me, attribution is what I care about MORE than any other licensing requirements, more than copyleft "share-alike" style provisions, etc.
If you feel similarly, it would be good to hear on this thread. Perhaps even copying a similar notice into your project is a good idea.
depends a bit on the goal of the FOSS as to how important copy-left, licensing, etc. might be but attribution is the crucial underpinning regardless of which licensing you do or don't do. who did the work is vital to know.
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We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn @copiesofcopies @cwebber I'm sure the fascist American companies write great policies!
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We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop i have a question.
why would you expect that it would do anything other than bias you towards allowing it?
the corporate interests of those who trained the LLM are in favor of this outcome. you cannot expect it to to do anything but lead you in this direction, regardless of whether it is correct.
by deciding to allow it to help you, you have already forfeited making the decision. -
We are more in agreement than you realize:
I guess now is a good as time as any to “come out”: I'm using #Anthropic's #Claude on a regular basis to help me figure out what types of policies we should set for reasonable & ethical use of #LLMGenAI in #FOSS, & also to actually improve FOSS codebases.
I believe it is reasonable to use proprietary technologies as long as our eyes remain on the prize of defeating those technologies.
@cwebber, I suspect, doesn't agree.
@bkuhn @copiesofcopies @cwebber bruh.
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@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop i have a question.
why would you expect that it would do anything other than bias you towards allowing it?
the corporate interests of those who trained the LLM are in favor of this outcome. you cannot expect it to to do anything but lead you in this direction, regardless of whether it is correct.
by deciding to allow it to help you, you have already forfeited making the decision.@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop Claude is a machine that makes the average decision.
if the "average decision" is good enough for you, then whatever, i guess.
but isn't the Software Freedom Conservancy a bit more important than that? isn't part of the point not to just blindly do the same thing everyone else is doing? -
@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop Claude is a machine that makes the average decision.
if the "average decision" is good enough for you, then whatever, i guess.
but isn't the Software Freedom Conservancy a bit more important than that? isn't part of the point not to just blindly do the same thing everyone else is doing?@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop
i do not have software freedom in a world where anyone with an LLM can take my software from me and use it without my permission by laundering it through a bit of matrix math, so that they no longer have to obey the attribution requirements, or anything else they decide they don't like, such as the entire contents of the GPL.
your decision here does not make me feel like the Software Freedom Conservancy is fighting for my software freedom. -
@bkuhn @copiesofcopies
I think we should be pushing back on these things. I'm worried and dissappointed that FOSS leadership isn't. I'm really worried we might never recover from the damage that's already been done.@cwebber @bkuhn @copiesofcopies The lure of using GenAI regularly and thus actively helping the destruction of the commons (among other harms), is especially strong when one finds a use case which is genuinely convenient or time-saving. Just because it saves me time doesn’t mean that it magically becomes harmless; that’s merely me rationalizing my use.
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@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop
i do not have software freedom in a world where anyone with an LLM can take my software from me and use it without my permission by laundering it through a bit of matrix math, so that they no longer have to obey the attribution requirements, or anything else they decide they don't like, such as the entire contents of the GPL.
your decision here does not make me feel like the Software Freedom Conservancy is fighting for my software freedom.@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop like, i'm sorry if this fact makes you uncomfortable, but as a SFC board member, every time you ask Claude about your policy, you have to remember not only that you aren't talking to a person, but also that you are not talking to your computer, either. you are talking to Anthropic.
so, what you are doing is allowing Anthropic, the corporation, into the room, and giving them a share of your seat on the board, and a leading voice, in the only policy that could reject their interests, by outsourcing your policy decisions to them.
i do not trust Anthropic to forward the interests of the SFC.
i also do not trust anyone who lets a corporation like Anthropic make decisions for them on behalf of such an organization. -
@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop like, i'm sorry if this fact makes you uncomfortable, but as a SFC board member, every time you ask Claude about your policy, you have to remember not only that you aren't talking to a person, but also that you are not talking to your computer, either. you are talking to Anthropic.
so, what you are doing is allowing Anthropic, the corporation, into the room, and giving them a share of your seat on the board, and a leading voice, in the only policy that could reject their interests, by outsourcing your policy decisions to them.
i do not trust Anthropic to forward the interests of the SFC.
i also do not trust anyone who lets a corporation like Anthropic make decisions for them on behalf of such an organization.@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop
as a thought experiment, consider whether you would change your behavior if it turned out that every request to Anthropic was outsourced to a "call center" somewhere halfway across the globe, where a bunch of people were trained by Anthropic to always provide similar responses and pretend that they are an AI. would you still be so comfortable with using this?
(leave aside the fact that this sort of thing actually sometimes happens in real life, with real "AI" deployments) -
@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop
as a thought experiment, consider whether you would change your behavior if it turned out that every request to Anthropic was outsourced to a "call center" somewhere halfway across the globe, where a bunch of people were trained by Anthropic to always provide similar responses and pretend that they are an AI. would you still be so comfortable with using this?
(leave aside the fact that this sort of thing actually sometimes happens in real life, with real "AI" deployments)@bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org @copiesofcopies@social.coop @cwebber@social.coop this isn't a "think of the poor people", by the way. feel free to imagine that they are well-compensated and happy with their jobs, because that still doesn't get rid of the issue here. -
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