I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
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@art_codesmith @fedithom@social.saarland @jwcph
"If you're not mining and refining the materials and building the chips..."
You're conflating different scenarios to the point of absurdity.
@ricardoharvin @jwcph Maybe? I don't know. It was defnitely not my intention.
Maybe I've read too deep into this but, for me, writing in assembly is the best analogy for woodworking with manual tools.
Using a high-level language would be like working with well-developed power tools.
(Using AI... well, the advocates think that it's like working with a super-fancy programmable machine but the motors are busted and the tolerances are between "frick" and "all".) -
@jwcph @Ponygirl
"AI" is not "AI". I hate that "AI" has become the term people use to refer to ChatGPT or Gemini.You have to distinguish LLMs and other genAI that are being hyped by big tech from the kind of AI that's being used in science and has been used in science for decades.
For example, I use a neural network model to denoise my astrophotography.
"AI" should never have been made available to the general public. This is a thing for science and science alone.
@ninafelwitch @Ponygirl I don't think We
️ have to distinguish. Whatever useful tools scientists & other highly specialised people have which technically fall under this, you guys can & will keep alive regardless of the flak rightfully directed at the hype version & its downfall (hopefully). - just as long as You
️ remember to distinguish, which sadly isn't always the case; I work at a tech institute (though not an engineer/scientist myself) where they don't & it's causing real problems... -
RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
@jwcph the employee who focuses on making himself indispensable and irreplaceable is one you must terminate.
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Dump trucks are a tool. If we lose dump trucks, then we no longer have the ability & skills required to move large loads of gravel. Therefore, according to the general principle cited ( "If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability") it follows that dump trucks are a liability.
But, of course, dump trucks are not a liability. They make it possible to do what we could not do before. Same with LLMs.
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@Downes So, you're an idiot?
@jwcph What kind of response is that?
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RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
@jwcph That just validates my opinion on LLMs: they are just a tool, and if you can't code without them you shouldn't depend on them in the first place.
In a way, they are a multiplier: they can make a good coder more efficient, but for someone that doesn't know what they're doing they will just result in a lot more bad output. Just like an efficient saw can help a good woodworker, but also result in a lot more wood scraps if used by an unskilled one.
I do agree that the reliance on a handfull of companies is bad though. Since it takes so much resources, it's not like anyone can build a decent LLM, so the competition just isn't there, unlike other tools where there are usually many good options (including more ethical ones...) -
Dump trucks are a tool. If we lose dump trucks, then we no longer have the ability & skills required to move large loads of gravel. Therefore, according to the general principle cited ( "If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability") it follows that dump trucks are a liability.
But, of course, dump trucks are not a liability. They make it possible to do what we could not do before. Same with LLMs.
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@jwcph the employee who focuses on making himself indispensable and irreplaceable is one you must terminate.
@keengrasp So... people are tools to you?
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Dump trucks are a tool. If we lose dump trucks, then we no longer have the ability & skills required to move large loads of gravel. Therefore, according to the general principle cited ( "If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability") it follows that dump trucks are a liability.
But, of course, dump trucks are not a liability. They make it possible to do what we could not do before. Same with LLMs.
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RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
@jwcph It's a good point, but I'm totally using AI to do programming things that I have the ability to do as a programmer. It's a tool.
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RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
@jwcph @thomasfuchs @drikanis great point – a tool should enhance your skill, not supplant it!
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RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
We used to have a bookcase in every software house with tech docs on it and we normalised that being replaced with online docs.
Then Google-fu became important and knowing the right question to form a query around became a good skill for a young dev.
So we got to the point devs developed skills in asking good questions and identifying good answers. The issue is LLM answers don't have peer review like Stack Overflow and get trusted like official docs.
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@Wifiwits @jwcph I am aware that dump trucks are not the same as LLMs. However, the original statement said "If loss of a tool..." and both dump trucks and LLMs are tools.
The original principle sounds appealing, but the appeal comes from its generality. But it is too broad. It captures too much. So we have to ask, why would this principle apply to LLMs if it doesn't apply to dump trucks?
Try not to respond with insults. It's far more interesting to actually engage with the point being made.
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@Wifiwits @jwcph I am aware that dump trucks are not the same as LLMs. However, the original statement said "If loss of a tool..." and both dump trucks and LLMs are tools.
The original principle sounds appealing, but the appeal comes from its generality. But it is too broad. It captures too much. So we have to ask, why would this principle apply to LLMs if it doesn't apply to dump trucks?
Try not to respond with insults. It's far more interesting to actually engage with the point being made.
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@Ponygirl You know, there's a lot of people who would respond to that with a bunch of hemming & hawing about how useful it can/will be for the right applications - but right now I'd say they have the burden of proof & to my knowledge, they're not lifting it.
I'm with you.
@jwcph @Ponygirl just like nobody has proven that woodworking machines can be useful, right?
(yes, you fell victim of your own analogy)It's not even remotely hard to prove that LLMs are useful (refactoring, difficult rebases, generating skeletons for projects, etc), anyone who honestly tried them knows that. Their problems are ethical, political, environmental and financial. LLMs (esp. frontier ones) are unsustainable, whether they work or not.
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@jwcph @Ponygirl just like nobody has proven that woodworking machines can be useful, right?
(yes, you fell victim of your own analogy)It's not even remotely hard to prove that LLMs are useful (refactoring, difficult rebases, generating skeletons for projects, etc), anyone who honestly tried them knows that. Their problems are ethical, political, environmental and financial. LLMs (esp. frontier ones) are unsustainable, whether they work or not.
@creepy_owlet @Ponygirl Funny how all that evidence never turns up in public - you would think those examples were worth sharing...
Maybe also tell you boss; about 90% of leaders asked say they can't see any gains thanks to AI.
