I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
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@Wifiwits @jwcph I am aware that dump trucks are not the same as LLMs. However, the original statement said "If loss of a tool..." and both dump trucks and LLMs are tools.
The original principle sounds appealing, but the appeal comes from its generality. But it is too broad. It captures too much. So we have to ask, why would this principle apply to LLMs if it doesn't apply to dump trucks?
Try not to respond with insults. It's far more interesting to actually engage with the point being made.
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@Wifiwits @jwcph I am aware that dump trucks are not the same as LLMs. However, the original statement said "If loss of a tool..." and both dump trucks and LLMs are tools.
The original principle sounds appealing, but the appeal comes from its generality. But it is too broad. It captures too much. So we have to ask, why would this principle apply to LLMs if it doesn't apply to dump trucks?
Try not to respond with insults. It's far more interesting to actually engage with the point being made.
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@Ponygirl You know, there's a lot of people who would respond to that with a bunch of hemming & hawing about how useful it can/will be for the right applications - but right now I'd say they have the burden of proof & to my knowledge, they're not lifting it.
I'm with you.
@jwcph @Ponygirl just like nobody has proven that woodworking machines can be useful, right?
(yes, you fell victim of your own analogy)It's not even remotely hard to prove that LLMs are useful (refactoring, difficult rebases, generating skeletons for projects, etc), anyone who honestly tried them knows that. Their problems are ethical, political, environmental and financial. LLMs (esp. frontier ones) are unsustainable, whether they work or not.
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@jwcph @Ponygirl just like nobody has proven that woodworking machines can be useful, right?
(yes, you fell victim of your own analogy)It's not even remotely hard to prove that LLMs are useful (refactoring, difficult rebases, generating skeletons for projects, etc), anyone who honestly tried them knows that. Their problems are ethical, political, environmental and financial. LLMs (esp. frontier ones) are unsustainable, whether they work or not.
@creepy_owlet @Ponygirl Funny how all that evidence never turns up in public - you would think those examples were worth sharing...
Maybe also tell you boss; about 90% of leaders asked say they can't see any gains thanks to AI.
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@keengrasp So... people are tools to you?
@jwcph no, I’m saying it’s very on-brand absurdist hypocrisy for capitalists to seek out the exact same behaviors from their AI tools that they define as immediate grounds for termination when it’s detected in their human servants. Holy shit - Did you think I’ve ever had employees?? I’m a fucking librarian my guy
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@jwcph no, I’m saying it’s very on-brand absurdist hypocrisy for capitalists to seek out the exact same behaviors from their AI tools that they define as immediate grounds for termination when it’s detected in their human servants. Holy shit - Did you think I’ve ever had employees?? I’m a fucking librarian my guy
@keengrasp Well, in my defense, your OP was pretty terse
thank you for clarifying & I agree. Of course the reason they want from their AI what they don't want from their employees is that they literally own the AI - what they want, and again I'm not in any way being facetious or hyperbolic, is slaves; all the capability & cognition of humans, none of the freedom, up to & including the freedom to exist.
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RE: https://mstdn.ca/@drikanis/116107120926277506
I'd like to comment on the common "AI is just a tool" thing: I'm a woodworker by training & that means a lot of machines - but almost every craftsperson knows how to do their job with hand tools, or "lesser" machines.
Similarly, a writer can write without a text editor - just as well, only slower.
If loss of a tool = loss of your skill & knowledge, then that tool isn't an asset, it's a liability. You're signing over your ability to do business to whoever sells & maintains that tool.
@jwcph I'm also a woodworker and while I can now do a reasonable amount by hand it's not how I was taught and I work with many, particularly carpenters, who can't do any work without power tools. The vast majority can't sharpen a chisel and have never used a hand plane. I've never seen a tenon saw on site and a panel saw is only for crude cuts. Manual skills are there and buildings get built, often well even, but those skills are expressed through machines almost exclusively.
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@jwcph I'm also a woodworker and while I can now do a reasonable amount by hand it's not how I was taught and I work with many, particularly carpenters, who can't do any work without power tools. The vast majority can't sharpen a chisel and have never used a hand plane. I've never seen a tenon saw on site and a panel saw is only for crude cuts. Manual skills are there and buildings get built, often well even, but those skills are expressed through machines almost exclusively.
@lostwax Yeah, but those guys still know how all of that works & would be able to teach temselves the hand process - e.g. sharpening a tool - pretty easily if they either had to or wanted to. Read the OP again & remember, this is ostensible professionals *themselves* saying they don't know how to do their job without a specific tool. If you come across a carpenter who says that, you know they're a bad carpenter.
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@lostwax Yeah, but those guys still know how all of that works & would be able to teach temselves the hand process - e.g. sharpening a tool - pretty easily if they either had to or wanted to. Read the OP again & remember, this is ostensible professionals *themselves* saying they don't know how to do their job without a specific tool. If you come across a carpenter who says that, you know they're a bad carpenter.
@jwcph yeah they could learn but if a chippy I'm working with has to take the humps out of a stud frame and their electric planer breaks they are going to go and buy a new one, there won't even be a hand plane on site, let alone the skill to use it. You are right that most of those people could learn hand tool work, but most never have, never will and don't want to.
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@jwcph yeah they could learn but if a chippy I'm working with has to take the humps out of a stud frame and their electric planer breaks they are going to go and buy a new one, there won't even be a hand plane on site, let alone the skill to use it. You are right that most of those people could learn hand tool work, but most never have, never will and don't want to.
@lostwax None of that was the point, though.
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@lostwax None of that was the point, though.
@jwcph I think it is the point honestly. Those carpenters have signed over their ability to do work to mechanisation and power tools, in the same way a programmer might to an LLM. I actually think they've lost something in that and it's been the subject of a good bit of historical handwringing. But within the industry it's now a completely uncontroversial bargain they've made and was probably inevitable as long as we're operating under capitalism.
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@jwcph I think it is the point honestly. Those carpenters have signed over their ability to do work to mechanisation and power tools, in the same way a programmer might to an LLM. I actually think they've lost something in that and it's been the subject of a good bit of historical handwringing. But within the industry it's now a completely uncontroversial bargain they've made and was probably inevitable as long as we're operating under capitalism.
@lostwax It's not remotely the same. LLMs result in cognitive offloading - you can't offload your thinking to a fucking CNC router.
