Have you ever used a zipper?
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Also just as a PS, it's neither possible nor very adaptive to ask yourself to have an overwhelmingly detailed explanation of mechanisms for everything you encounter, so that's not the goal. Groups of people need to fluently work at many different levels of abstraction.
The key is matching the level of understanding to the tasks and problems that we have! And often, coordinating different depths of expertise!
But we can benefit from having metacognitive skills!
@grimalkina "I think if I do this then this will happen, but I'm not sure why" is a thought that has kept me out of so much trouble."
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The vast majority of zipper users -- skilled, successful zipper users! -- can't explain how a zipper works.
This is a charming, famous example that comes from cognitive science/psychology work on The Illusion of Explanatory Depth: "Most people feel they understand the world with far greater detail, coherence, and depth than they really do"
Rozenblit, L., & Keil, F. (2002). The misunderstood limits of folk science: An illusion of explanatory depth. Cognitive science, 26(5), 521-562.
@grimalkina the more broken zippers you have fixed the better the chances you understand how they work - maybe I'm odd because when they break I really look at what's wrong.
Lot's of different ways they can break or wear out.
and yes - most people are not paying attention
I think this innatention is an example of a neurotypical disability.
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@grimalkina the more broken zippers you have fixed the better the chances you understand how they work - maybe I'm odd because when they break I really look at what's wrong.
Lot's of different ways they can break or wear out.
and yes - most people are not paying attention
I think this innatention is an example of a neurotypical disability.
@sean I think it's important to not frame this as an ultimatum on ability that you either have or don't have. This is also something that many types of minds experience, for instance, some people might not articulate deep mechanistic explanations for social patterns, it's not just about physical objects!
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Also just as a PS, it's neither possible nor very adaptive to ask yourself to have an overwhelmingly detailed explanation of mechanisms for everything you encounter, so that's not the goal. Groups of people need to fluently work at many different levels of abstraction.
The key is matching the level of understanding to the tasks and problems that we have! And often, coordinating different depths of expertise!
But we can benefit from having metacognitive skills!
@grimalkina I have heard it said a few places that the key to truly understanding a complex thing is being able to explain its properties in a way that someone else can understand with no previous familiarity with it. Would you agree or disagree with this? I kind of feel like being able to break things down in that way is in and of itself a skill, so I'm not convinced the relationship is causal in that way (although I do think it is a good idea and a riggorous method to apply to yourself!)
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I take away a few implications from this evidence, which falls under the broad area of "metacognition" and belief formation.
- our minds are tremendously adaptive at learning to manipulate things around us, but perfect manipulation and even perfect outcome production isn't always a direct test of understanding. You can have a flawed mental model that still produces a reliable outcome. To study understanding, we need to go deeper.
@grimalkina and to some extent you can *only* have a flawed mental model
Holding that model flexibly is sometimes key to breakthroughs
See this wonderful talk from Richard Feynman on how magnets work and realise that while we have a good understanding - there are always levels at which we just dont know
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Metacognition is something I highlight in my book. These are *learnable skills* and they are *very predictive* for real-world outcomes. People who cultivate habits of puncturing cognitive illusions form expertise, and make the people around them better thinkers too.
Amazing how much we can learn just from a little zipper!
@grimalkina
I just bought your book and I'm excited to read it! -
@grimalkina I have heard it said a few places that the key to truly understanding a complex thing is being able to explain its properties in a way that someone else can understand with no previous familiarity with it. Would you agree or disagree with this? I kind of feel like being able to break things down in that way is in and of itself a skill, so I'm not convinced the relationship is causal in that way (although I do think it is a good idea and a riggorous method to apply to yourself!)
@prism I think that's probably a very strong signal of understanding when you see it but not perfect in that it probably is conditional on some other things, like verbal and social skills! So not every case where you don't see it means understanding is lacking. So kind of a specificity vs sensitivity question there
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Have you ever used a zipper? Odds are you have. Are you pretty good at it? Odds are! You've probably successfully used a zipper many, many times. You probably can't even remember when and where you learned how to operate a zipper. If you're a good zipper user and we sat you down in a room and gave you ten zippered garments, you'd probably fluently and flawlessly be able to zip them up and down.
Now......can you explain how a zipper works?
@grimalkina Magic?
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In this study, the researchers asked about a range of stimuli, which in my humble opinion* are really fun to quiz yourself on. Can you explain:
- how a sewing machine works
- how a can opener works
- how a flush toilet operates
- how the heart pumps blood
- how piano keys make soundSome of these are far more elaborate, haha:
- how the aqualung regulates air-pressure
- how a transistor works*granted...I became a psychologist so maybe my sense of fun is warped
@grimalkina I love this kind of stuff! I cannot explain how an aqualung regulator works but I know the rest. My special interest is in collecting facts that are entirely irrelevant to my life
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Have you ever used a zipper? Odds are you have. Are you pretty good at it? Odds are! You've probably successfully used a zipper many, many times. You probably can't even remember when and where you learned how to operate a zipper. If you're a good zipper user and we sat you down in a room and gave you ten zippered garments, you'd probably fluently and flawlessly be able to zip them up and down.
Now......can you explain how a zipper works?
@grimalkina This shoe-shaped thingy you grab, interlocks / separates both sides of your zipper depending on the direction you're pulling it.
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In this study, the researchers asked about a range of stimuli, which in my humble opinion* are really fun to quiz yourself on. Can you explain:
- how a sewing machine works
- how a can opener works
- how a flush toilet operates
- how the heart pumps blood
- how piano keys make soundSome of these are far more elaborate, haha:
- how the aqualung regulates air-pressure
- how a transistor works*granted...I became a psychologist so maybe my sense of fun is warped
Hm. Sewing machines. I've _seen_ the diagrams, I've stepped through the process on my great-grandmother's pedal sewing machine.
It's still cursed magic.
I've dived into a lot of those, and some, nope, I dunno. I'm not 100% sure what an aqualung even is, for Pete's sake.
I'm about to start on that PDF. I have minor in Political Philosophy, so I'm gonna put that hat on to read it. I'll come back later.
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Have you ever used a zipper? Odds are you have. Are you pretty good at it? Odds are! You've probably successfully used a zipper many, many times. You probably can't even remember when and where you learned how to operate a zipper. If you're a good zipper user and we sat you down in a room and gave you ten zippered garments, you'd probably fluently and flawlessly be able to zip them up and down.
Now......can you explain how a zipper works?
@grimalkina How true! Reminds me of this Dara Ó Briain stand up https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BVxOb8-d7Ic
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@grimalkina It's like, I knew graphite was a dry lubricant. But I don't think I would have ever thought to just use a pencil on a zipper. And now I know that I can apply dry lubricant to all kinds of assemblies by just jamming a pencil up in there. Thanks, metacognition!
@sidereal @grimalkina Discovered this when attempting to beat the Fulcher Brothers at speed Rubik's Cube solving at school - cube times were significant social currency as a 13yo nerd
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@grimalkina No you suggested it. I already knew, your postmade me ask them. Thanks.
@grimalkina Reflecting on it I really would have asked,. But it take a little external challenge to shake us out of ‘understanding and ‘what we assume others do’. So thanks again.
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@prism I think that's probably a very strong signal of understanding when you see it but not perfect in that it probably is conditional on some other things, like verbal and social skills! So not every case where you don't see it means understanding is lacking. So kind of a specificity vs sensitivity question there
@grimalkina @prism great question. Cat, you’re amazing. Thanks for your work. More wisdom of the elders being proven true.
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@grimalkina I love this kind of stuff! I cannot explain how an aqualung regulator works but I know the rest. My special interest is in collecting facts that are entirely irrelevant to my life
@oisin nice!!
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Also just as a PS, it's neither possible nor very adaptive to ask yourself to have an overwhelmingly detailed explanation of mechanisms for everything you encounter, so that's not the goal. Groups of people need to fluently work at many different levels of abstraction.
The key is matching the level of understanding to the tasks and problems that we have! And often, coordinating different depths of expertise!
But we can benefit from having metacognitive skills!
@grimalkina assuming this is about software I've always found "how do you fix a stuck zipper" more valuable knowledge than how a zipper works.
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@sidereal just casually doing learning transfer all over the place
you're killing iti have a vague recollection of my mom using lead pencils to unstuck zippers, so thanks for undusting the cobwebs of that memory!
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Have you ever used a zipper? Odds are you have. Are you pretty good at it? Odds are! You've probably successfully used a zipper many, many times. You probably can't even remember when and where you learned how to operate a zipper. If you're a good zipper user and we sat you down in a room and gave you ten zippered garments, you'd probably fluently and flawlessly be able to zip them up and down.
Now......can you explain how a zipper works?
@grimalkina @b0rk Someone said they and their partner often play a game where one of them points at a normal household item and says, “How does that work?” They pretty quickly realized that “The power comes from the wall, and then it makes tiny dots light up” wasn’t a very good explanation of how a TV actually works.
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Also just as a PS, it's neither possible nor very adaptive to ask yourself to have an overwhelmingly detailed explanation of mechanisms for everything you encounter, so that's not the goal. Groups of people need to fluently work at many different levels of abstraction.
The key is matching the level of understanding to the tasks and problems that we have! And often, coordinating different depths of expertise!
But we can benefit from having metacognitive skills!
@grimalkina I'm currently reading your book, stumbled upon this thread, didn't look at the author and was like »huh people are really interested in the psychology of how people work and learn these days, nice«
