One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
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@juliette except that this is not a key anything, much less a serious argument against such laws. Bike share programs supply a whole bike - you really think it's beyond those programs to supply an appropriate helmet with each bike? Australia has been doing just that for decades for bike and scooter share and hire. Tourists and locals alike don't have to carry a helmet. Hygiene? Carry a small pack of antiseptic wipes or wear the helmet over a cap or soft-brimmed hat. Clearly you have no objection to protecting your health by wearing a mask. A helmet is a similar precaution. If you don't want mandatory helmet laws, that's an entirely valid view, but at least formulate a sensible argument against them, not vibes and feelpinions.
@billschulz here’s the science behind my statement. It’s not a vibe, it’s widely documented with data: https://rothar.ie/blogs/velostories/thehelmetparadox
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One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
Those programs win because they are convenient and encourage spontaneous cycling. That just doesn’t work if a person has to carry a helmet everywhere just in case they decide to cycle. Tourists are not going to pack a bulky helmet. Shared helmets are a hygiene nightmare.
Protect cyclists with bike infrastructure. That’s what works.
#helmets@juliette Agreed, I see what you bring up as a strong point. On the other side, there is a lot of comments here suggesting "helmets don’t really do much". Here is a study which reports that "Head injuries were found to be reduced significantly with helmet usage by 60 percent, brain injuries by 58 percent and facial injuries were reduced by 4 percent. [...] Fatal injuries were shown to decrease significantly by a prominent 73 percent" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x Saying helmets don't work is harmful
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@JaxxAI I’m not saying to not wear a helmet individually , but that as public policy to reduce total injuries, mandatory helmet laws have been demonstrated with data to be counterproductive: https://rothar.ie/blogs/velostories/thehelmetparadox
@juliette it comes across like you are saying it would be fine to cycle without a helmet if the infrastructure favoured cycles. That’s not how this works, accidents can happen on dedicated cycle paths too. I’m not interested in so called data as I’ve experienced this at the sharp end. You obviously haven’t and I doubt the author of the paper has either. Data is mostly interpreted opinion anyway. The fact that helmets are becoming mandatory is irrelevant as people should be wearing them anyway.
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@juliette
Not just bike sharing. Places that have experimented with making bicycle helmets mandatory have repeatedly found out that this removes the convenience of a bicycle. If people are required to put on a helmet, grabbing the bicycle is no longer quicker and easier than getting in a car.The result is that the winner of mandatory bicycle helmet laws is the car lobby.
Next time someone suggests mandatory bicycle helmets, ask them if they drive a car...
@leeloo @juliette is a false dichotomy.
Mandatory helmet reduce the convenience of a bicycle but ending parking subsidies appears to drivers the biggest costs of private vehicle ownership.That acts as a huge penalty .
The first step the Netherlands took to reduce car usage, since parking is the most expensive part of owning a car the bike use grow.
Switzerland is similar, with greater use of public transport instead of bicycles. -
@JaxxAI @enobacon @juliette
Also maybe bike sharing schemes are successful some places, but what % of cycles on the road are they?
They seemed to collapse here in Limerick.
We have a lot of cycle lanes now.
Most cyclists seem to have been wearing a helmet and something HiVis for years here.
There is a problem with bad drivers.. -
Not to mention that removing all the bike-share cyclists will lead to a drop in the amount of cyclists, which is one of the risk factors for bikes getting hit by cars.
@juliette agreed on all accounts.
I used to ride motorcycles. When I switched back to bikes I kept the helmet, but I acknowledge it's more of a reflex. I am unsure whether it really protects me. In my motorcycle riding days, I would have dismissed my flimsy bike helmet as a sort of talisman, rather than proper protective gear.
But OK, I like it that the law neither forbids nor compels me to wear a helmet.
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@JaxxAI @enobacon @juliette
Also maybe bike sharing schemes are successful some places, but what % of cycles on the road are they?
They seemed to collapse here in Limerick.
We have a lot of cycle lanes now.
Most cyclists seem to have been wearing a helmet and something HiVis for years here.
There is a problem with bad drivers..@raymaccarthy @enobacon @juliette 100% agree about driving standards. I learned to drive 32yrs ago and I’ve noticed a difference. Not entirely sure what it is but everyone seems to drive much closer/faster with very little respect to others on the roads, cyclists get caught the crossfire. Maybe it’s because there are more vehicles on the roads these days and the vast majority of roads are no longer fit for purpose. This has nothing to do with cycling helmets though, accidents happen anywhere.
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@Arapalla @marco_m_aus_f @juliette Well, in that myopic sense they do. They also reduced the miles travelled by bike by an even more drastical margin. As the exercise related to riding a bike helps to prevent cardiovascular deseases, several studies have concluded that helmet laws lead to a net negative effect on the health of the whole population.
@geeeero @Arapalla @marco_m_aus_f @juliette citations?
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@juliette Agreed, I see what you bring up as a strong point. On the other side, there is a lot of comments here suggesting "helmets don’t really do much". Here is a study which reports that "Head injuries were found to be reduced significantly with helmet usage by 60 percent, brain injuries by 58 percent and facial injuries were reduced by 4 percent. [...] Fatal injuries were shown to decrease significantly by a prominent 73 percent" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x Saying helmets don't work is harmful
@CrowOnAKettle @juliette does anyone know how that compares to seat belt impact? It seems like very good reductions.
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@juliette Thanks, loads of citations to indulge me there! My only regret about cycling is that I didn’t get back into it sooner, but looking back I recognise a big part of that is the hostile road environment we’ve created.
As an aside, on my quick read I don’t think it mentioned the change in attitudes towards individual cyclists wearing safety gear (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847823001018). I know when I did a few rides with and without a helmet it felt the closer and fastest (and more aggressive) passes were when I was helmeted.
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@raymaccarthy @enobacon @juliette 100% agree about driving standards. I learned to drive 32yrs ago and I’ve noticed a difference. Not entirely sure what it is but everyone seems to drive much closer/faster with very little respect to others on the roads, cyclists get caught the crossfire. Maybe it’s because there are more vehicles on the roads these days and the vast majority of roads are no longer fit for purpose. This has nothing to do with cycling helmets though, accidents happen anywhere.
@JaxxAI @enobacon @juliette
Bigger, heavier cars.
More SUVs
More pickup trucks as domestic vehicles, & larger too.
Bring in much higher taxes (sale & road) and extra tests for heavier vehicles. Two extra licences between car & lorry/truck.
Proof of business/farm need for 4x4, SUV, pickups etc.
Abolish road tax for small cars & motor bikes as the fuel is taxed. Increase fuel tax. Needs to be much higher in USA.
Allow ebikes to have a throttle, but rate faster/more power as per a moped Honda 50. -
One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
Those programs win because they are convenient and encourage spontaneous cycling. That just doesn’t work if a person has to carry a helmet everywhere just in case they decide to cycle. Tourists are not going to pack a bulky helmet. Shared helmets are a hygiene nightmare.
Protect cyclists with bike infrastructure. That’s what works.
#helmets@juliette
Bike Share, or are many (all?) parasitic offshore companies renting bikes?Bike infrastructure is important.
Reversing trend of monster vehicles too. -
@CrowOnAKettle @juliette does anyone know how that compares to seat belt impact? It seems like very good reductions.
@__d @juliette I think the impact is comparable. About 50% fatal injury reduction based on this source https://worldmetrics.org/seat-belt-effectiveness-statistics/
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@__d @juliette I think the impact is comparable. About 50% fatal injury reduction based on this source https://worldmetrics.org/seat-belt-effectiveness-statistics/
@CrowOnAKettle @juliette thanks!
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@juliette Thanks, loads of citations to indulge me there! My only regret about cycling is that I didn’t get back into it sooner, but looking back I recognise a big part of that is the hostile road environment we’ve created.
As an aside, on my quick read I don’t think it mentioned the change in attitudes towards individual cyclists wearing safety gear (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847823001018). I know when I did a few rides with and without a helmet it felt the closer and fastest (and more aggressive) passes were when I was helmeted.
@james I can’t remember where I read it, but there has been a study on this! They compared the attitude of car drivers depending on a few factors: wearing a helmet, reflective gear, type of bike, perceived gender.
I remember the striking result was that the best way to protect against road rage was having a ponytail (and being perceived as female). -
One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
Those programs win because they are convenient and encourage spontaneous cycling. That just doesn’t work if a person has to carry a helmet everywhere just in case they decide to cycle. Tourists are not going to pack a bulky helmet. Shared helmets are a hygiene nightmare.
Protect cyclists with bike infrastructure. That’s what works.
#helmetsWhy on earth can't the cycling industry design and manufacture a helmet that a person can carry around without to much effort, or that doesn't cost so much (the prices are ludicrous for a bit of plastic) or that can be made sanitary for multiple users ????
I bought my 1st 10 speed in 1970
and since then, I have thought that the cycling industry does a truly crappy job of designing and selling stuff that is helpful and useful
we accept that crap that the industry, now mostly in China, pushes at us
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@james I can’t remember where I read it, but there has been a study on this! They compared the attitude of car drivers depending on a few factors: wearing a helmet, reflective gear, type of bike, perceived gender.
I remember the striking result was that the best way to protect against road rage was having a ponytail (and being perceived as female).@juliette My link covered some of that (but wasn’t where I first saw it). Interesting you mention gender, my — purely anecdotal — take based on the cyclists I know is that women cyclists suffer much worse abuse than men.
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@JaxxAI @enobacon @juliette
Also maybe bike sharing schemes are successful some places, but what % of cycles on the road are they?
They seemed to collapse here in Limerick.
We have a lot of cycle lanes now.
Most cyclists seem to have been wearing a helmet and something HiVis for years here.
There is a problem with bad drivers..@raymaccarthy @JaxxAI @enobacon @juliette A bike share scheme needs to be designed right to be a success. Edinburgh’s last bike share scheme flopped, but the current one is a runaway success, to the point that there seem subjectively to be way more people cycling now, and the majority of them seem to be on these hire bikes.
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@juliette My link covered some of that (but wasn’t where I first saw it). Interesting you mention gender, my — purely anecdotal — take based on the cyclists I know is that women cyclists suffer much worse abuse than men.
@james There's large variation between cultures / regions.
Here in Denmark cycling with a small child on the bike is often reported to attract less shitty behaviour from car drivers. My anecdotal experience agrees.
However. In summer we get a LOT of foreign tourists. And when encountering people driving cars with foreign plates effect seems be gone.
It's worse with rental cars (often Brits and Americans) but I think those are often just genuinely badly educated drivers.
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@Arapalla @marco_m_aus_f @juliette
Citing "doctors" is a propaganda technique: "More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigaret"
Meanwhile, daily exercise helps prevent stroke and increases learning.
