Charging is the key friction in uptake of electric cars (its not the only issue, obviously), so the news China's BYD is launching a luxury model in Europe next month that will 'flash charge' (full range charge in around 15mins) may be a game changer.
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@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 Nio is betting the shop on his but the reality is almost all EV owners home charge only and a lot of them just granny charge overnight. Most cars spend their life almost entirely idle. Charge speed is mostly a perceived barrier to ownership not a real issue
There are cases for battery swap - taxis, heavy machinery with high utilisation etc but not mainstream cars or trucksTo actual EV users it's just not a problem
@etchedpixels @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 was discussing with a taxi driver the challenge of not being able to do airport runs (400km round trip) on a single charge in their current Teslas. They seemed very interested in the BYD cars.
Mean while the postman's van is fully electric
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@EUCommission
@BrianSmith950
I've been pushing this solution for years (possibly before Chinese came up with their PoT) but no one wants to hear. I wrote to European Commission, because standardized battery form factors & tech specs are a precondition and legislation in a large trading block is the only way to cut through proprietary, siloed designs, outside a prescriptive Communist block.1. Disconnect vehicle & battery longevity. For the sake of the planet, maximize both.
2. A global recycling infrastructure based on standard pattern battery is cheaper & more achievable
3. Reuse existing petroleum forecourts, rather than building a highly disruptive and maintenance heavy recharging network (still support home charging too, to exploit solar, etc)
4. Changing battery for a full recharge is the same order of time as current refueling not 'a long time'
5. Exchangeable batteries can be recharged in a more compact 'petroleum' forecourt type infrastructure, whether or not the vehicle is present. So much better than having a distributed charging infrastructure with enough charging nodes so that there's approximately no wait to get to one and STILL have a long charge wait time
6. Buying a car involves two costs.
a. Vehicle - pay/lease
b. Battery - deposit - you never own a battery but you put in enough to own one. The actual physical battery changes every refill but your deposit covers it while you're using it.
7. Being standardised universal battery units, all vehicles from all manufacturers can benefit from evolving tech improvements over time, even post vehicle sale.
@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission I don't think swappable batteries are a good idea. It adds cost and complexity and weight to the car. And it locks every new car to a standard battery pack that was probably technologically dated before the standard was signed off.
What for? The charge times are getting closer and closer to a swap time, so there's marginal time benefit. And most users just slow charge at home anyway.
But I do support enforced repairability.
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@GeofCox @etchedpixels @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6
We already have the technology to put a charging point into every lamppost.
In dense urban environments, the inequality between people who can home charge at night for 7p / kWH and those who need to DC charge at 70p / kWH becomes quite stark.
We'll likely need significant government action to get more people into the former group. Exclusively private charging infrastructure will always put profits first.
@svavar @GeofCox @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 70p is rip off rates but there's a real confusopoly at work and they need to be forced to clearly post prices on big boards at EV charging areas
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Charging is the key friction in uptake of electric cars (its not the only issue, obviously), so the news China's BYD is launching a luxury model in Europe next month that will 'flash charge' (full range charge in around 15mins) may be a game changer.
Tesla also has a similar technology but we might expect BYD's to flow downwards from luxury models to 'normal' e-cars more quickly?
There's also an infrastructure issue, but interesting to see how this plays out.
#ElectricCars #batteries
h/t FT@ChrisMayLA6 I've had an EV for nearly 2 years. I'm doing 60 mile commutes a few times a week. It's got a short range, so I need to charge it every other day if I don't want to overstress the battery. The only time I use a fast charger is if I need to do more than 200 miles in a day, which is pretty rare. It's charging speed is very poor... But by the time I've had a wee and grabbed a coffee, it's rarely cost me a delay. Probably a few minutes a year. EV charging speeds are almost irrelevant.
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@EUCommission
@BrianSmith950
I've been pushing this solution for years (possibly before Chinese came up with their PoT) but no one wants to hear. I wrote to European Commission, because standardized battery form factors & tech specs are a precondition and legislation in a large trading block is the only way to cut through proprietary, siloed designs, outside a prescriptive Communist block.1. Disconnect vehicle & battery longevity. For the sake of the planet, maximize both.
2. A global recycling infrastructure based on standard pattern battery is cheaper & more achievable
3. Reuse existing petroleum forecourts, rather than building a highly disruptive and maintenance heavy recharging network (still support home charging too, to exploit solar, etc)
4. Changing battery for a full recharge is the same order of time as current refueling not 'a long time'
5. Exchangeable batteries can be recharged in a more compact 'petroleum' forecourt type infrastructure, whether or not the vehicle is present. So much better than having a distributed charging infrastructure with enough charging nodes so that there's approximately no wait to get to one and STILL have a long charge wait time
6. Buying a car involves two costs.
a. Vehicle - pay/lease
b. Battery - deposit - you never own a battery but you put in enough to own one. The actual physical battery changes every refill but your deposit covers it while you're using it.
7. Being standardised universal battery units, all vehicles from all manufacturers can benefit from evolving tech improvements over time, even post vehicle sale.
@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission China is playing a different game. All batteries in future are digitally locked to the vehicle and serial numbered. They have to be accounted for when the vehicle is recycled. Only approved agents can tie an existing battery to a new vehicle. It's meant to control all the dodgy recycling going on but of course the rest of the agenda is making sure they control the second hand and recycling market globally
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@EUCommission
@BrianSmith950
I've been pushing this solution for years (possibly before Chinese came up with their PoT) but no one wants to hear. I wrote to European Commission, because standardized battery form factors & tech specs are a precondition and legislation in a large trading block is the only way to cut through proprietary, siloed designs, outside a prescriptive Communist block.1. Disconnect vehicle & battery longevity. For the sake of the planet, maximize both.
2. A global recycling infrastructure based on standard pattern battery is cheaper & more achievable
3. Reuse existing petroleum forecourts, rather than building a highly disruptive and maintenance heavy recharging network (still support home charging too, to exploit solar, etc)
4. Changing battery for a full recharge is the same order of time as current refueling not 'a long time'
5. Exchangeable batteries can be recharged in a more compact 'petroleum' forecourt type infrastructure, whether or not the vehicle is present. So much better than having a distributed charging infrastructure with enough charging nodes so that there's approximately no wait to get to one and STILL have a long charge wait time
6. Buying a car involves two costs.
a. Vehicle - pay/lease
b. Battery - deposit - you never own a battery but you put in enough to own one. The actual physical battery changes every refill but your deposit covers it while you're using it.
7. Being standardised universal battery units, all vehicles from all manufacturers can benefit from evolving tech improvements over time, even post vehicle sale.
@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission
Thats a great idea, indeed. Actually unfolding all over in mainland China.
This was first regulated National Standard for Battery Swap Safety Requirements for Electric Vehicles (GB/T 40032-2021), followed by the mechanical standarization to y 2025.In the Western world this won’t be possible until the last lobbyist is behind bars. And until the last politician willing to cooperate with said lobbyist is on the second bunk to him.
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@capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
When you next change cars, check the price of older EV models (e.g. Hyundai, Kia. etc, but avoid the very old ones with small batteries and any with known battery issues (old Leaf's))
Prices seem to be coming down close to petrol / diesel equivalents.@BrianSmith950 @capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
It's well worth looking around. Mrs Walrus has a '24 reg Peugeot that had stood in a showroom its whole life, much cheaper than a new car, and delivered with 6 miles on the clock. I drive our '24 MG4, which was also very well priced. Both from Cinch.
The people who worry about range make me laugh. I am unable to drive even 100 miles without stopping for a pee.
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@EUCommission
@BrianSmith950
I've been pushing this solution for years (possibly before Chinese came up with their PoT) but no one wants to hear. I wrote to European Commission, because standardized battery form factors & tech specs are a precondition and legislation in a large trading block is the only way to cut through proprietary, siloed designs, outside a prescriptive Communist block.1. Disconnect vehicle & battery longevity. For the sake of the planet, maximize both.
2. A global recycling infrastructure based on standard pattern battery is cheaper & more achievable
3. Reuse existing petroleum forecourts, rather than building a highly disruptive and maintenance heavy recharging network (still support home charging too, to exploit solar, etc)
4. Changing battery for a full recharge is the same order of time as current refueling not 'a long time'
5. Exchangeable batteries can be recharged in a more compact 'petroleum' forecourt type infrastructure, whether or not the vehicle is present. So much better than having a distributed charging infrastructure with enough charging nodes so that there's approximately no wait to get to one and STILL have a long charge wait time
6. Buying a car involves two costs.
a. Vehicle - pay/lease
b. Battery - deposit - you never own a battery but you put in enough to own one. The actual physical battery changes every refill but your deposit covers it while you're using it.
7. Being standardised universal battery units, all vehicles from all manufacturers can benefit from evolving tech improvements over time, even post vehicle sale.
@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission battery exchange is expensive and makes vehicles heavier, larger and far less efficient. It really only works for very high uptime equipment.
A modern EV is basically an integrated flattish chassis, batteries and motor with a body stuck on top.
Batteries also outlive cars at this point and will do so ever more dramatically -
@AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 Nio is betting the shop on his but the reality is almost all EV owners home charge only and a lot of them just granny charge overnight. Most cars spend their life almost entirely idle. Charge speed is mostly a perceived barrier to ownership not a real issue
There are cases for battery swap - taxis, heavy machinery with high utilisation etc but not mainstream cars or trucksTo actual EV users it's just not a problem
@etchedpixels @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 This.
Our EV has been fast-charged only a handful of times in two years. It normally charges off a 13A socket at home. Either timed at night using cheap grid electricity, or for free during sunny days from our solar panels. It charges when we're not using it, so zero time wasted.
It has enough range for 200 miles in a day with juice to spare. More than enough for the longest trips, perhaps once or twice a year.
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Indeed - and an important point here is that the forthcoming BYD Blade Battery not only flash charges, but gives a driving range of 777 - 1,000+ km - and 10 new BYD models to include the new-batteries are planned, with prices from 155,000 yuan (less than 20,000€).
Very few journeys are more than a thousand kilometres (600+ miles), so I think evolving technology is likely to make charging at home, or anyway overnight, more rather than less common.
As you say, most of us already prefer to charge overnight at home (or at our destination) - it's easier and cheaper - so I foresee the disappearance of the whole 'filling station' infrastructure, except at services where there are also hotels, restaurants, etc, and in neighbourhoods of apartments etc where there's no room for home charging.
@GeofCox @etchedpixels @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6
As I say to my friends I don't have EV range anxiety, I have bladder anxiety. 300miles range (240 after an 80% fast recharge) is plenty for long journeys unless you use a colostomy bag and actively want to fall asleep at the wheel.
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@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission China is playing a different game. All batteries in future are digitally locked to the vehicle and serial numbered. They have to be accounted for when the vehicle is recycled. Only approved agents can tie an existing battery to a new vehicle. It's meant to control all the dodgy recycling going on but of course the rest of the agenda is making sure they control the second hand and recycling market globally
@etchedpixels @gregalotl @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission
Most manufacturers worldwide already software lock all the components on the car internal bus. -
@capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
When you next change cars, check the price of older EV models (e.g. Hyundai, Kia. etc, but avoid the very old ones with small batteries and any with known battery issues (old Leaf's))
Prices seem to be coming down close to petrol / diesel equivalents.@BrianSmith950 @ChrisMayLA6 £1000 max? Cos that's our limit.
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@capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
When you next change cars, check the price of older EV models (e.g. Hyundai, Kia. etc, but avoid the very old ones with small batteries and any with known battery issues (old Leaf's))
Prices seem to be coming down close to petrol / diesel equivalents.@BrianSmith950 @ChrisMayLA6 thanks. We will.
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@BrianSmith950 @capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
It's well worth looking around. Mrs Walrus has a '24 reg Peugeot that had stood in a showroom its whole life, much cheaper than a new car, and delivered with 6 miles on the clock. I drive our '24 MG4, which was also very well priced. Both from Cinch.
The people who worry about range make me laugh. I am unable to drive even 100 miles without stopping for a pee.
@Walrus @BrianSmith950 @ChrisMayLA6 yes. When we've driven 70 or 80 miles we're definitely ready for a break anyway. And the dogs need relief too. So we'd be topping up charge then anyway. Simple purchase price is our limiting factor.
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@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission I don't think swappable batteries are a good idea. It adds cost and complexity and weight to the car. And it locks every new car to a standard battery pack that was probably technologically dated before the standard was signed off.
What for? The charge times are getting closer and closer to a swap time, so there's marginal time benefit. And most users just slow charge at home anyway.
But I do support enforced repairability.
@guigsy
See all the other benefits I listed. Plus you could say that about industry standards of all sorts. There are benefits of scale, safety, etc because of industry standards. Also, aren't faster recycle times at the cost of battery longevity?
@BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission -
@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission China is playing a different game. All batteries in future are digitally locked to the vehicle and serial numbered. They have to be accounted for when the vehicle is recycled. Only approved agents can tie an existing battery to a new vehicle. It's meant to control all the dodgy recycling going on but of course the rest of the agenda is making sure they control the second hand and recycling market globally
@etchedpixels
Didn't know that. Would hope there's a legitimate Blockchain solution for that. Rendering Blockchain finally useful, so batteries just end up in an open and free (but auditable) chain of use/recharge/audit/recycle
@BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission -
@Walrus @BrianSmith950 @ChrisMayLA6 yes. When we've driven 70 or 80 miles we're definitely ready for a break anyway. And the dogs need relief too. So we'd be topping up charge then anyway. Simple purchase price is our limiting factor.
@capnthommo @BrianSmith950 @ChrisMayLA6
Same here, dogs have to be drained, even if I don't (unlikely).
Lots of other sellers will also have bargains, but we like Cinch for ease of purchase, and good service.
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@BrianSmith950 @capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6
It's well worth looking around. Mrs Walrus has a '24 reg Peugeot that had stood in a showroom its whole life, much cheaper than a new car, and delivered with 6 miles on the clock. I drive our '24 MG4, which was also very well priced. Both from Cinch.
The people who worry about range make me laugh. I am unable to drive even 100 miles without stopping for a pee.
@Walrus @BrianSmith950 @capnthommo @ChrisMayLA6 Not that many years ago on our regular 375 mile journey we see, when we stopped for all the usual reasons, queues at the tiny numbers of EV chargers that were actually working.
That's changed. There's usually now a choice of unoccupied working chargers. The build-out of infrastructure over the last decade or so does seem to be making a big difference.
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@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission battery exchange is expensive and makes vehicles heavier, larger and far less efficient. It really only works for very high uptime equipment.
A modern EV is basically an integrated flattish chassis, batteries and motor with a body stuck on top.
Batteries also outlive cars at this point and will do so ever more dramatically@etchedpixels
It's a design problem where a solution is to keep the cost & complexity down for a drive-over solution, to reap all the other benefits. A standard design can reap the benefit of getting corporations out of the enshitification loops and proprietary lock-in on batteries & charging. Plus, consider the holistic costs & sustainability, not just the customer purchase cost.
@BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission -
@guigsy
See all the other benefits I listed. Plus you could say that about industry standards of all sorts. There are benefits of scale, safety, etc because of industry standards. Also, aren't faster recycle times at the cost of battery longevity?
@BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission@gregalotl @BrianSmith950 @AndyDearden @ChrisMayLA6 @EUCommission you can make batteries recyclable without making them swappable.
I would make cars heavier, it would constrain their designs, probably make them larger, less innovative, with less advanced batteries. So less efficient. More to buy, more to run.
And swap stations are a massive investment in land and the required robotics and servicing. It's far easier to just keep adding a transformer box next to a parking spot.
