While it's obviously good that the EU becomes more independent from the US, the focus on having this be a software based solution is scary.
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RE: https://social.lansky.name/@hn100/116047223853314925
While it's obviously good that the EU becomes more independent from the US, the focus on having this be a software based solution is scary.
We can already see in Sweden, how Swish has created digital exclusion, where some people cannot pay for products and services, just because they have the wrong/too old phone.
Cards might not be perfect, but at least they are ~20€/year pieces of plastic, not 500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time.
Of course, the irony here is that this will likely just end up getting rid of one US based duopoly in favor of strengthening another one (Apple and Google).
European alternatives such as #Jolla are effectively locked out of these solutions, because they have too little market share, and these payment solutions are not open spec whatsoever.
No one is talking about how to break that status quo. Why would anyone want to get a phone/OS combo that locks you out of fundamental things in society?
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Of course, the irony here is that this will likely just end up getting rid of one US based duopoly in favor of strengthening another one (Apple and Google).
European alternatives such as #Jolla are effectively locked out of these solutions, because they have too little market share, and these payment solutions are not open spec whatsoever.
No one is talking about how to break that status quo. Why would anyone want to get a phone/OS combo that locks you out of fundamental things in society?
I want to stress that this is obviously not Jolla's fault, but rather an unfortunate side effect of payment solutions being pushed by banks and other corporate entities which do not care about inclusivity in the digital space.
All payment solutions as well as digital identification *must* be completely open spec for anyone to implement, otherwise they are flawed by design.
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I want to stress that this is obviously not Jolla's fault, but rather an unfortunate side effect of payment solutions being pushed by banks and other corporate entities which do not care about inclusivity in the digital space.
All payment solutions as well as digital identification *must* be completely open spec for anyone to implement, otherwise they are flawed by design.
@znurre I'm hoping the EUdi will solve this.
"the EU digital wallets will be open-source licensed"
https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/eudi-regulation
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I want to stress that this is obviously not Jolla's fault, but rather an unfortunate side effect of payment solutions being pushed by banks and other corporate entities which do not care about inclusivity in the digital space.
All payment solutions as well as digital identification *must* be completely open spec for anyone to implement, otherwise they are flawed by design.
I miss the days when you could still SSH to your bank (Nordea) with a credit card-sized challenge-response codebook.
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RE: https://social.lansky.name/@hn100/116047223853314925
While it's obviously good that the EU becomes more independent from the US, the focus on having this be a software based solution is scary.
We can already see in Sweden, how Swish has created digital exclusion, where some people cannot pay for products and services, just because they have the wrong/too old phone.
Cards might not be perfect, but at least they are ~20€/year pieces of plastic, not 500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time.
@znurre Not to mention that people just visiting Sweden can’t purchase things from vendors that only take Swish.
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RE: https://social.lansky.name/@hn100/116047223853314925
While it's obviously good that the EU becomes more independent from the US, the focus on having this be a software based solution is scary.
We can already see in Sweden, how Swish has created digital exclusion, where some people cannot pay for products and services, just because they have the wrong/too old phone.
Cards might not be perfect, but at least they are ~20€/year pieces of plastic, not 500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time.
@znurre "500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time" Including any action you might take which the provider of the phone's software system deems unacceptable for any reason.
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RE: https://social.lansky.name/@hn100/116047223853314925
While it's obviously good that the EU becomes more independent from the US, the focus on having this be a software based solution is scary.
We can already see in Sweden, how Swish has created digital exclusion, where some people cannot pay for products and services, just because they have the wrong/too old phone.
Cards might not be perfect, but at least they are ~20€/year pieces of plastic, not 500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time.
@znurre The digital euro project includes physical cards.
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html
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@znurre The digital euro project includes physical cards.
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html
@Changaco Thanks! That makes me very hopeful.
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@znurre "500€ phones that can become unsupported at any point in time" Including any action you might take which the provider of the phone's software system deems unacceptable for any reason.
@kevin Indeed, great point!
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@znurre Not to mention that people just visiting Sweden can’t purchase things from vendors that only take Swish.
@tml Yeah, great point!
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@znurre I'm hoping the EUdi will solve this.
"the EU digital wallets will be open-source licensed"
https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/eudi-regulation
@troed Fingers crossed! Thanks for sharing
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I want to stress that this is obviously not Jolla's fault, but rather an unfortunate side effect of payment solutions being pushed by banks and other corporate entities which do not care about inclusivity in the digital space.
All payment solutions as well as digital identification *must* be completely open spec for anyone to implement, otherwise they are flawed by design.
@znurre
100% agree.
Including on the point that there needs to be a payment card element.
IMO without a EU-based payment card system to rival visa & mastercard, there isn't actually a European alternative. -
@znurre
100% agree.
Including on the point that there needs to be a payment card element.
IMO without a EU-based payment card system to rival visa & mastercard, there isn't actually a European alternative. -
@znurre
100% agree.
Including on the point that there needs to be a payment card element.
IMO without a EU-based payment card system to rival visa & mastercard, there isn't actually a European alternative.@Gurre @znurre we have a Danish card "Dankortet" which was introduced back when payment cards were increasingly becoming a thing abroad. The banks were practically begging the regulators to allow them a payment card solution; it would be so neat and efficient, and much cheaper doing transactions this way than by customers taking cash out all the time.
"How much cheaper?"
1/2
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@Gurre @znurre we have a Danish card "Dankortet" which was introduced back when payment cards were increasingly becoming a thing abroad. The banks were practically begging the regulators to allow them a payment card solution; it would be so neat and efficient, and much cheaper doing transactions this way than by customers taking cash out all the time.
"How much cheaper?"
1/2
@Gurre @znurre So there was an ok from the regulators: you will get "dankortet" it will be a card without balance control.
And you, the banks, will cover these "cheap" transaction fees.
And they've been trying all they can to get rid of dankortet ever since. (The banks have) They are obligated by law to offer it to customers. And they hate it.
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@Gurre @znurre So there was an ok from the regulators: you will get "dankortet" it will be a card without balance control.
And you, the banks, will cover these "cheap" transaction fees.
And they've been trying all they can to get rid of dankortet ever since. (The banks have) They are obligated by law to offer it to customers. And they hate it.
obviously, however, being a national solution, its a card thats coupled with either a Mastercard or visa. So whenever it's used in a place that supports Dankort, it's that part that is used, but if we go abroad, is basically just a visa/Mastercard
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@rasmus91 @znurre
That's a more detailed explanation than I've seen before of Dankortet.
Sounds like a system that ought to be in every country, really. And make them compatible using a european alternative to visa/mastercard.
The constant "we're developing a new tech" things when what we need is a new non-US, non-corporate version of existing tech does get more than a little annoying. -
@rasmus91 @znurre
That's a more detailed explanation than I've seen before of Dankortet.
Sounds like a system that ought to be in every country, really. And make them compatible using a european alternative to visa/mastercard.
The constant "we're developing a new tech" things when what we need is a new non-US, non-corporate version of existing tech does get more than a little annoying. -
@rasmus91 @Gurre I feel like Denmark are doing a lot of things right in general.
As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong), Denmark decided to make e-mail encryption mandatory, and then relied on this existing decentralized technology for sensitive communication from the government, for example.
What did Sweden do? Well, we now have private companies like Kivra providing "secure inboxes" for people. Completely centralized, and with some proprietary (although open) protocol.
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@rasmus91 @Gurre I feel like Denmark are doing a lot of things right in general.
As far as I know (correct me if I am wrong), Denmark decided to make e-mail encryption mandatory, and then relied on this existing decentralized technology for sensitive communication from the government, for example.
What did Sweden do? Well, we now have private companies like Kivra providing "secure inboxes" for people. Completely centralized, and with some proprietary (although open) protocol.
@znurre @Gurre yeah, i wish this was the case, but we also have eboks, mit, and something called digital post.
I'm not sure what protocol this uses, but it's not something you can just connect your IMAP client to.
Certainly we do some things right. But Danish industry and government has for the last three decades (in the words of my colleague) been so horny for Microsoft licensed software.
But Margrethe Vestager (who helped bring USB C charging standards to EU) is from Denmark
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