I find the way that some people understand what is and isn't racism mystifying.
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@futurebird
Anyway, the experience of in that context being the hated minority and also being loved by many of the majority taught me a lot about racism. A big part of racism is attributing to specific people things that are notably more prevalent in the group. but notably more prevalent doesn't have to mean common. something that gets reported that happened once in a population of millions but had never been reported before in another group is already notably more prevalent.@futurebird
In Oakland in the 1980s there was a story about how Vietnamese immigrants were catching and eating the Koi in the pond outside the Oakland Museum. They even shut the pond down. I have no idea if it was true or maybe it was raccoons, but let's say it was true. There were thousands of Vietnamese immigrants and it would take 3-4 of them to decimate that pond. But now this thing became a "property of the group" -
@futurebird
In Oakland in the 1980s there was a story about how Vietnamese immigrants were catching and eating the Koi in the pond outside the Oakland Museum. They even shut the pond down. I have no idea if it was true or maybe it was raccoons, but let's say it was true. There were thousands of Vietnamese immigrants and it would take 3-4 of them to decimate that pond. But now this thing became a "property of the group"@futurebird
In this way, a group of people who were refugees from absolute destruction our country had wrought on their home who were malnourished over decades who had little ability to fit in and struggled to eat ... this thing a few of them did which was an act of desperation became attributed to all of them because it was soooo unusual and therefore notably different even at prevalence of 1 in 10,000 or whatever. -
It's really more about the kind of imagery used in cartoons and minstrel shows to make fun of black people for... really liking two of the objectively best foods around?
But also turning any joy into shame. Ha ha ha you like eating food. How embarrassing.
@futurebird @Nocta_Senestra They *are* the objectively best foods!
I feel like people only like steak *because* it's expensive... -
For some white people with racism it's like they have a check list. The following things are racism... and NOTHING else:
1. The n word IF said in a MEAN way.
2. Monkeys
3. Watermelon
4. Segregated Water Fountain Signs.Show them a sign that says "No Blacks Allowed" on a changing room at a store and they are like "well that's different... maybe there is a good reason? People steal"
It's is buck wild. Why even pretend that you care about racism at all?
Some of ya'll are so damn strange.
@futurebird They always make excuses for their bigotry.
They're just convinced it only looks one way.
To them, bigotry is a *thing* that is clearly defined. It looks and sounds and acts one certain way. And only bigots are bigots. Good people aren't bigots. So if they believe someone is good, then they can't be a bigot.
And if a good person says something that sounds a little bigoted, they must have a good reason. Because they're good. Not bigots (bad).
It's all mental gymnastics...
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I'm well aware that the kind of person who is "shocked" by the Obamas as apes video, but somehow didn't have the same level of reaction to "cats and dogs" isn't interested in what Black people think. They are mostly worried that "important powerful people" do not think of them as racist. So, even saying this is a little pointless.
But, maybe some of ya'll can ask your uncle or auntie why are ya'll like this? Why?
3/3
@futurebird I suspect that a factor in this is that covertly racist whites don't have a problem with the racism of either of these, but were scandalized by how uncouth the ape video was. Targeting low status Haitian immigrants: classy. Targeting a former POTUS and First Lady: not classy. They see the Obamas as having proven themselves as "civilized", and Trump is debasing himself because he can't control himself when the topic of Obama comes up.
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I do not worry about the Obamas. The Obamas are fine. It's hard for me to feel sad or bad about anything that's said about them. A Haitian working two jobs and living in Ohio having to try to prove that they don't eat cats is MUCH more upsetting to me.
I mean it's all ignorance and very embarrassing.
@futurebird It's so horrific. Also the one woman in Ohio who did eat a cat, was neither Haitian nor Latina nor an immigrant, she was just having a psychotic episode while under the delusion that she'd killed her own children (her children were fine and being cared for by other relatives.) It's just really sad and I think about her a lot, I mean it's only by luck that I've never gotten that detached from reality right it's not something people bring upon themselves it just happens, apparently she's still in jail -
@futurebird They always make excuses for their bigotry.
They're just convinced it only looks one way.
To them, bigotry is a *thing* that is clearly defined. It looks and sounds and acts one certain way. And only bigots are bigots. Good people aren't bigots. So if they believe someone is good, then they can't be a bigot.
And if a good person says something that sounds a little bigoted, they must have a good reason. Because they're good. Not bigots (bad).
It's all mental gymnastics...
@futurebird @CordiallyChloe Yup! Liberals have just as much of an "I'm a good person. If you can't see that, that's a you problem!" as conservatives. They just justify it with classism and education instead of religion. But it's the same damn problem.
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@futurebird @CordiallyChloe Yup! Liberals have just as much of an "I'm a good person. If you can't see that, that's a you problem!" as conservatives. They just justify it with classism and education instead of religion. But it's the same damn problem.
@futurebird @CordiallyChloe The only way out is to give up on the whole "good people" / "bad people" dynamic and learn to apologize, listen, learn, and grow when we fuck up instead of doubling down on our goodness.
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@futurebird @CordiallyChloe The only way out is to give up on the whole "good people" / "bad people" dynamic and learn to apologize, listen, learn, and grow when we fuck up instead of doubling down on our goodness.
I don't wanna make a post about bigotry against black people all about me, but there is obviously intersectionality. And I can so easily point to this stuff in my own experiences too.
The one that makes me angriest as a trans person is "this is new to all of us. People just don't understand yet." And that INFURIATES me.
"I don't understand" is NEVER an excuse for bigotry. It's an excuse for you to *learn,* but not to perpetuate hate.
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@lienrag @futurebird It may be more perverse, but the “I don’t like super-obvious racism but tolerate the rest” crowd is more insidious. They are, I think, more numerous and mostly surrounded by other white people who won’t challenge their biases. So they don’t vote for “racism” but they vote for “tough on crime” and won’t believe there’s no difference.
@queenofnewyork @lienrag @futurebird i.e. "cannibalism is fine so long as you put your napkin in your lap and chew with your mouth closed"
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What is the issue? It's the same thing. It's a prejudice that Black people are primitive and inhuman. Like apes or some animal that attacks your pets. It's the same racism.
Is it that they don't care if it's not powerful people?
Dazzled by the wealth and power of the Obamas and so you can recognize an insult to them but not to some regular blackfolks?
It is really odd and I do not get it.
These things are equal and we only got a retraction for ONE of them. 2/
@futurebird FWIW (not a lot, I know) I think the retraction came because The Right People pushed back.
I know that all of the racist comments and post he has made have offended me. In fact, every racist thing, every ablist thing, every fucking offensive word out of his fingers sucks.
But I also know that a) I don't see or hear most of it; and b) It is what we expect from him, so we get inured to it all. Sadly. It takes some new level of offensiveness to spark a response.
He and his ilk are just vile. But there is nothing I can do about it. Except - where I can - express my disgust and support for those being offended.
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P pelle@veganism.social shared this topic
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For some white people with racism it's like they have a check list. The following things are racism... and NOTHING else:
1. The n word IF said in a MEAN way.
2. Monkeys
3. Watermelon
4. Segregated Water Fountain Signs.Show them a sign that says "No Blacks Allowed" on a changing room at a store and they are like "well that's different... maybe there is a good reason? People steal"
It's is buck wild. Why even pretend that you care about racism at all?
Some of ya'll are so damn strange.
People want to avoid the guilt of being labeled racist, but they want their segregation and their cheap sweatshop slop and their police etc
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Watermelon
In the south sometimes black kids would steal watermelons to eat. Because they were hungry. This was a nuisance to the plantation owners and they thought that hungry kids eating watermelon fast was funny.Fried Chicken
It's a way of making inexpensive meat more tasty and nourishing. You can't afford a steak or pork but maybe some fried chicken.These are things that brought poor black people joy so they made fun of it.
@futurebird @rozeboosje @Nocta_Senestra
Racists don't make sense. I would personally do unspeakable things for free fried chicken... and I am white.
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For some white people with racism it's like they have a check list. The following things are racism... and NOTHING else:
1. The n word IF said in a MEAN way.
2. Monkeys
3. Watermelon
4. Segregated Water Fountain Signs.Show them a sign that says "No Blacks Allowed" on a changing room at a store and they are like "well that's different... maybe there is a good reason? People steal"
It's is buck wild. Why even pretend that you care about racism at all?
Some of ya'll are so damn strange.
@futurebird My first impulse is to think well yeah, Obama is at least kinda in the in-group but Haitian immigrants aren't. And that's probably part of it, but yeah it does seem like it's more heuristics like you say. Maybe it's more comforting to the average white American to think of a checklist as necessary and sufficient to avoid doing a racism.
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@futurebird I think too many people think of racism as something you are, rather than something you do. If you point out to someone that something they said is racist, it’s taken as an attack on the fundamental nature of their character; you’re saying they’re A Racist and a Bad Person. There’s no room for the possibility that, having been raised in a society that systematically devalues people who aren’t white, you might have some unexamined ideas that are, in fact, racist, even while you honestly and sincerely reject the concept of racism.
@josh0 @futurebird YES.
As somebody who's said things and been called out on it.... defensiveness is the first reaction....
... but people *can* learn
(I remember 'way back in high school ... last year in there it was when I thought "but why do I expect all white people on the accelerated track?" -
@Zumbador @futurebird 100% this. I grew up affluent and liberal, so to realize as an adult that I was juuuuust as much of a participant in racism, that the “I would never say _that_” was just a fig leaf and a cherished class signifier, and that I was and continue to be the beneficiary of the misery machine… that was (and is) rough.
@tikaro @Zumbador @futurebird Unlearning racism is hard work. I’ve been going through that myself, and the process and the education never ends.
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It certainly is, but it is in a more perverse way than "I hate black people".
It's "I hate foreign black people" - you are absolutely right to be totally riled up by that as a US black woman (and to understand that you're next if they can get away with it), but still it's less obvious racism than the Obama picture.(I totally agree with you, just trying to answer you're "what's wrong with y'all" question)
@lienrag @futurebird I don't think it's actually less obvious, it's just more tolerated -
I think about the little Haitian American school kids and what it has been like for them walking to school or in the lunch room.
The most powerful man in the world is talking pure trash about people like you.
Government sanctioned harassment
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@lienrag @futurebird It may be more perverse, but the “I don’t like super-obvious racism but tolerate the rest” crowd is more insidious. They are, I think, more numerous and mostly surrounded by other white people who won’t challenge their biases. So they don’t vote for “racism” but they vote for “tough on crime” and won’t believe there’s no difference.
@lienrag @futurebird @queenofnewyork or these days: "we just want immigration laws to me enforced and the border secured!"
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@futurebird "Racism is bad. I am not a bad person. Therefore I cannot be a racist. Therefore what I do isn't racism." Many other things can be put in place of racism there, of course.
@RogerBW This brand of ”logical reasoning” seems to be quite common, but is there a name for this cognitive phenomenon?
”I want to perceive myself as a ’good’ person and not a …, so what already I do can’t be …!”
Seems like something a french/german academic in the mid 1900s would probably have coined a term for.
