I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
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@david_chisnall This really matches my experience interviewing for jobs lately: the coding tests are often very artificial problems that you’ll never encounter in real work situations and that you could answer quickly, under the intense pressure of an interview, only if you had seen that exact problem before or something very similar and learned the solution by heart. The interviewers always say, ‘We just want to see how you think’, but in practice they’re testing how much you’ve memorised.
@benjamingeer yeah because the recruiters are incompetent or don't care enough to engage.
Imagine if you were hired by your future colleagues? A team interview would ask you practically useful questions and you would have equal opportunity to see you really wanted to work with these people.
No managers, no CEOs, no mental constipation.
But this won't happen because we are hired to make money for some asshat who couldn't give less of a shit about you or your colleagues, making something that nobody gives a shit about.
And so nobody gives a shit, and the few folks who come with passion slowly (a) stop giving a shit, (b) burn out, or (c) turn traitor to become asshats themselves.
Capitalism! Giving you the middle finger. Suck it.
Don't like it? Do something! But if you do anything that gives people hope, better buy some guns and get ready to kill a fuckton of cops, and then soldiers. (This has happened in Europe many times. Either the cops or the military wins.)
Meanwhile, do as little as possible and safely sabotage whatever you can. Or join a worker's coop! Where are those??
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@david_chisnall I think you might be underestimating the value here. Just with "matching solved problems with existing solutions" in it's own right is the greatest invention of the century. Most problems have existing solutions - choosing the right one and applying it is like 99% of all work we do. This is actually a good thing as it leaves creative edge pushing solutions for us and have LLM tools do the "boring" matching - is it not?
It's how I use LLMs. Old greybeard, can "code anything" - but that doesn't mean that I _want_ to. When I have an itch to scratch I constantly have to weigh whether I have the time and interest to do _all_ of the things around the itch or not.
With LLMs I no longer have to ponder. I do the tiny fun part and the LLM does the rest - under my very greybeardy guidance.
I have never before created so many itch-scratching open source projects as during the last few months.
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I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
Back when I was an undergrad, the refrain we heard from big tech recruiters was 'we're not interested in specific skills, we want to hire problems solvers'. This always struck me as odd: everyone in my year could solve problems, it wasn't a rare skill, the difficult thing was identifying the correct problems to solve.
Digging a bit deeper, it turns out that they didn't even want people capable for solving generic problems, they wanted people who had learned a load of problem-solution pairs and would do closest-fit matching. People who would look at a problem and say 'ah, this looks like this well-known problem, the solution is therefore a variation of this well-known solution'. Not people who would create novel solutions but people who could pattern match and apply off-the-shelf solutions with small tweaks.
They wrote books about how to hire people with that skill, all without being explicit that this is what they were looking for.
And now they have machines that can do this: ingest a load of problem-solution pairs and match problems to some space of problems and infer a solution from the nearby solutions.
It's not surprising that they believe this is the same as novelty, because they've spent three decades incentivising their employees to avoid true novelty.
@david_chisnall funny how experiences change. A passing insult that stuck with me was someone disparaging older tech workers who describe themselves as "problem solvers" (which I did). The recruiter said this was an indicator that they have no actual skills to list.
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I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
Back when I was an undergrad, the refrain we heard from big tech recruiters was 'we're not interested in specific skills, we want to hire problems solvers'. This always struck me as odd: everyone in my year could solve problems, it wasn't a rare skill, the difficult thing was identifying the correct problems to solve.
Digging a bit deeper, it turns out that they didn't even want people capable for solving generic problems, they wanted people who had learned a load of problem-solution pairs and would do closest-fit matching. People who would look at a problem and say 'ah, this looks like this well-known problem, the solution is therefore a variation of this well-known solution'. Not people who would create novel solutions but people who could pattern match and apply off-the-shelf solutions with small tweaks.
They wrote books about how to hire people with that skill, all without being explicit that this is what they were looking for.
And now they have machines that can do this: ingest a load of problem-solution pairs and match problems to some space of problems and infer a solution from the nearby solutions.
It's not surprising that they believe this is the same as novelty, because they've spent three decades incentivising their employees to avoid true novelty.
@david_chisnall this parallels the problem solving/critical thinking distinction I see drawn in higher ed a lot. *Most* engineering degree programs teach problem solving, while science and the arts actually teach critical thinking. Distinguishing the two is quite critical.
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@david_chisnall funny how experiences change. A passing insult that stuck with me was someone disparaging older tech workers who describe themselves as "problem solvers" (which I did). The recruiter said this was an indicator that they have no actual skills to list.
@DaveFlater @david_chisnall Always Be Negging
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@david_chisnall I think you might be underestimating the value here. Just with "matching solved problems with existing solutions" in it's own right is the greatest invention of the century. Most problems have existing solutions - choosing the right one and applying it is like 99% of all work we do. This is actually a good thing as it leaves creative edge pushing solutions for us and have LLM tools do the "boring" matching - is it not?
@wraptile @david_chisnall I think the problem is that the creative edge-pushing solutions don't get attacked for one of a number of reasons that the tech industry is unable to address: (1) they're not profitable to solve, (2) they would take a long time to solve, or (3) tech people are often so blinkered that they can't even see the problem. As a result, there aren't many jobs solving edge-pushing problems. Also, there's now no route from junior developer to experienced developer able to solve those problems.
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I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
Back when I was an undergrad, the refrain we heard from big tech recruiters was 'we're not interested in specific skills, we want to hire problems solvers'. This always struck me as odd: everyone in my year could solve problems, it wasn't a rare skill, the difficult thing was identifying the correct problems to solve.
Digging a bit deeper, it turns out that they didn't even want people capable for solving generic problems, they wanted people who had learned a load of problem-solution pairs and would do closest-fit matching. People who would look at a problem and say 'ah, this looks like this well-known problem, the solution is therefore a variation of this well-known solution'. Not people who would create novel solutions but people who could pattern match and apply off-the-shelf solutions with small tweaks.
They wrote books about how to hire people with that skill, all without being explicit that this is what they were looking for.
And now they have machines that can do this: ingest a load of problem-solution pairs and match problems to some space of problems and infer a solution from the nearby solutions.
It's not surprising that they believe this is the same as novelty, because they've spent three decades incentivising their employees to avoid true novelty.
@david_chisnall In fairness, is this not the whole point of the skills and the curriculum being taught to C.S. undergrads?
That they learn to identify the class of problem, its complexity, and the most applicable of the existing solutions given a set of fixed or pre-existing constraints?
Which in turn makes the postgrad space about recognising the limits of the existing corpus of known problem solving techniques and/or reframing what is (and is not) a problem or a good solution...?
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I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
Back when I was an undergrad, the refrain we heard from big tech recruiters was 'we're not interested in specific skills, we want to hire problems solvers'. This always struck me as odd: everyone in my year could solve problems, it wasn't a rare skill, the difficult thing was identifying the correct problems to solve.
Digging a bit deeper, it turns out that they didn't even want people capable for solving generic problems, they wanted people who had learned a load of problem-solution pairs and would do closest-fit matching. People who would look at a problem and say 'ah, this looks like this well-known problem, the solution is therefore a variation of this well-known solution'. Not people who would create novel solutions but people who could pattern match and apply off-the-shelf solutions with small tweaks.
They wrote books about how to hire people with that skill, all without being explicit that this is what they were looking for.
And now they have machines that can do this: ingest a load of problem-solution pairs and match problems to some space of problems and infer a solution from the nearby solutions.
It's not surprising that they believe this is the same as novelty, because they've spent three decades incentivising their employees to avoid true novelty.
@david_chisnall Astute observation. I knew several excellent problem-solvers (also with specialties) who left big tech when they could no longer tolerate the force fitting of known “problem-solution pairs” (as you describe). Framing a novel situation in this way really stifled innovation. I think it is a factor in group think. Current example: LLMs.
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@wraptile @david_chisnall I think the problem is that the creative edge-pushing solutions don't get attacked for one of a number of reasons that the tech industry is unable to address: (1) they're not profitable to solve, (2) they would take a long time to solve, or (3) tech people are often so blinkered that they can't even see the problem. As a result, there aren't many jobs solving edge-pushing problems. Also, there's now no route from junior developer to experienced developer able to solve those problems.
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@david_chisnall This really matches my experience interviewing for jobs lately: the coding tests are often very artificial problems that you’ll never encounter in real work situations and that you could answer quickly, under the intense pressure of an interview, only if you had seen that exact problem before or something very similar and learned the solution by heart. The interviewers always say, ‘We just want to see how you think’, but in practice they’re testing how much you’ve memorised.
@benjamingeer @david_chisnall I *actually* want to see how my hires think, but also I doubt I'd fit in at a big tech firm
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I see LLMs as a continuation of the Silicon Valley obsession with 'problem solving' and their specific definition.
Back when I was an undergrad, the refrain we heard from big tech recruiters was 'we're not interested in specific skills, we want to hire problems solvers'. This always struck me as odd: everyone in my year could solve problems, it wasn't a rare skill, the difficult thing was identifying the correct problems to solve.
Digging a bit deeper, it turns out that they didn't even want people capable for solving generic problems, they wanted people who had learned a load of problem-solution pairs and would do closest-fit matching. People who would look at a problem and say 'ah, this looks like this well-known problem, the solution is therefore a variation of this well-known solution'. Not people who would create novel solutions but people who could pattern match and apply off-the-shelf solutions with small tweaks.
They wrote books about how to hire people with that skill, all without being explicit that this is what they were looking for.
And now they have machines that can do this: ingest a load of problem-solution pairs and match problems to some space of problems and infer a solution from the nearby solutions.
It's not surprising that they believe this is the same as novelty, because they've spent three decades incentivising their employees to avoid true novelty.
@david_chisnall This could come from an "End of History" philosophy. The myth that every experience has already occurred and nothing new can happen.
I see what you're describing mostly in search engine results. Rather than explaining the cause of an error, I'm blasted with anecdotes about how it was fixed. Very often my experience is novel so instead of an explanation, I'm met with scripts and hacks that don't work.
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@farooqkz @david_chisnall you just described the "CyberSecurity" industry. Congratulations!
@FuturisticRobert @david_chisnall
whaaaaaat?
Edit: oh I get it. yeah makes sense. And it's quite funny :)))
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