If you believe nonviolent protest is more effective, then simply advocate for it.
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@anolandria I would respectfully disagree because they have tanks and Trump is limited at present to his ICE thugs. Why give him a Christmas present where he has an excuse to declare martial law. This is what he is hoping for and people need to not provide it. Sadly, there will be murders by ICE but it is a fight for democracy and people need to stay strong, courageous and peaceful.
@Robo105 @anolandria if they needed a dead ICE thug for an excuse, do you not think they would kill one??? These nazis are playing a zero-sum game, while you are insisting on some sort of cooperation — this is a losing strategy.
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@anolandria Nonviolent protest is more effective.
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@EndicottAuthor @anolandria
But another way of looking at it is, fascists don't care about protest that doesn't come with consequences for them. They don't care how many people say what they're doing is wrong if nobody is going to stop them doing it.Nonviolent governments can be swayed by nonviolent protest - it's a negotiation of social norms in that case. But ultimately, protest is supposed to put government on notice that direct action to thwart them may be next.
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If you believe nonviolent protest is more effective, then simply advocate for it. The "don't give them an excuse" line is disingenuous victim blaming. They make shit up. We see it every single day, so please stop embarrassing yourself.
"Our behavior doesn’t drive theirs."
@anolandria They make shit up, but it's obvious that they do. If there is real violence from protestors, they do not need to make shit up.
Violence is contra productive. There is no chance you can overthrow ICE or whatever that way, you just do not have the means. The point is to get more support from the population, and that will ultimately drive change. Violence will drive support away.
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@anolandria I would respectfully disagree because they have tanks and Trump is limited at present to his ICE thugs. Why give him a Christmas present where he has an excuse to declare martial law. This is what he is hoping for and people need to not provide it. Sadly, there will be murders by ICE but it is a fight for democracy and people need to stay strong, courageous and peaceful.
@Robo105 @anolandria It's incredibly naïve to believe that protesting completely peacefully doesn't "give them an excuse." Did you or did you not just watch them gun down an innocent woman and then call her a domestic terrorist?
Let me be perfectly clear: they will declare martial law when and where they want. They are not waiting around for someone to shove a cop or block traffic.
They haven't yet because the majority is still passive and going about our lives. Check back in November.
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@anolandria Nonviolent protest is more effective.
@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?
Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.
You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.
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@Robo105 @anolandria It's incredibly naïve to believe that protesting completely peacefully doesn't "give them an excuse." Did you or did you not just watch them gun down an innocent woman and then call her a domestic terrorist?
Let me be perfectly clear: they will declare martial law when and where they want. They are not waiting around for someone to shove a cop or block traffic.
They haven't yet because the majority is still passive and going about our lives. Check back in November.
@dresstokilt @anolandria The question is whether they have public acceptance for martial law. If the public see protesters starting fires and shooting then Trump wins but if it is peaceful then he is seen as the brute he is. Yes, both way incur death but one allows success and the other hands Trump a win. This is why Trump is trying to goad violence
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@Robo105 @anolandria if they needed a dead ICE thug for an excuse, do you not think they would kill one??? These nazis are playing a zero-sum game, while you are insisting on some sort of cooperation — this is a losing strategy.
@wbftw @anolandria Cooperation is the wrong word. Opposition should play to your strengths and Trump are military force and the protesters have public acceptance/approval. Yes, people are going to die no matter what is done but there is a growing sense that Trump and ICE are out of control. There is an old saying, 'When your enemy is busy making a mistake, don't interrupt'. Let Trump be brutal because he loses more support each day and you can't win against tanks
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If you believe nonviolent protest is more effective, then simply advocate for it. The "don't give them an excuse" line is disingenuous victim blaming. They make shit up. We see it every single day, so please stop embarrassing yourself.
"Our behavior doesn’t drive theirs."
@anolandria Also: the statement "They're looking for an excuse to do X" is an implicit admission that the decision has already been made. We can only control the "when."
As you said, it's only function can be to reverse victim and offender by blaming the victim for inducing the inevitable. It does conveniently obscure the fact that we should be upset by someone looking for "an excuse."
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@Robo105 @anolandria Tell that to the folks in Waco or the Branch Davidians. Or the guys on Ruby Ridge.
The government can and will do whatever it wants, when it wants. They have drones, long distance guns and bombs. They can and will use them on the American people.
I get being pacifist. I try to be. That privalege is swiftly coming to an end for the majority of us. I can't stand by and watch my people die anymore.@HappyCrow13 @anolandria The branch davidians and Waco should not be compared to protesters who are fighting for democracy. Trump has all the weapons you mention so violence is his 'trump' card' so why give him public support. Peaceful protests gain support for the protesters
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If you believe nonviolent protest is more effective, then simply advocate for it. The "don't give them an excuse" line is disingenuous victim blaming. They make shit up. We see it every single day, so please stop embarrassing yourself.
"Our behavior doesn’t drive theirs."
It's not the fascists' opinions that matter.
Once anti-fascists initiate violence, we lose the judges, we lose the citizens, we lose the sympathy of non-corrupt law enforcement.
Those people's minds are the actual battlefield which determines whether we win or lose.
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@dresstokilt @anolandria The question is whether they have public acceptance for martial law. If the public see protesters starting fires and shooting then Trump wins but if it is peaceful then he is seen as the brute he is. Yes, both way incur death but one allows success and the other hands Trump a win. This is why Trump is trying to goad violence
@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.
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@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?
Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.
You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.
@dresstokilt @EndicottAuthor @anolandria
Non-violence toppled Pinochet, Bolsonaro and Yoon Suk Yeol, off the top of my head. There's a longer list...
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@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.
@Robo105 @anolandria I would argue that forcing them to declare martial law early would be more disruptive to their plans than singing kumbaya in the streets.
Not that there's been anywhere near enough "in the streets" to begin with. We're debating the finer points of peaceful protest in the context of a nation that simply doesn't care enough at the moment to put up *any* kind of protest.
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@dresstokilt @EndicottAuthor @anolandria
Non-violence toppled Pinochet, Bolsonaro and Yoon Suk Yeol, off the top of my head. There's a longer list...
@Phosphenes @EndicottAuthor @anolandria Bolsonaro and Yoon were ousted by democratic means before they'd had a chance to subvert those institutions and aren't relevant to this conversation. As for Pinochet, there's an entire Wikipedia article called "Armed resistance in Chile (1973-1990)."
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@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?
Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.
You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.
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@HappyCrow13 @anolandria The branch davidians and Waco should not be compared to protesters who are fighting for democracy. Trump has all the weapons you mention so violence is his 'trump' card' so why give him public support. Peaceful protests gain support for the protesters
@Robo105 @anolandria The Branch Davidians were peaceful folks who minded their own business. They caused no problems and were well liked The government made up lies about them, attacked and killed them
My point was the government needs no reason to kill you. You can be the most peaceful being on earth and they will kill you. Black folks die even more now despite being as peaceful as always. It's a grossly privileged take to say sit down and die nicely, don't cause problems
Pacifism is privilege -
@Robo105 @anolandria The Branch Davidians were peaceful folks who minded their own business. They caused no problems and were well liked The government made up lies about them, attacked and killed them
My point was the government needs no reason to kill you. You can be the most peaceful being on earth and they will kill you. Black folks die even more now despite being as peaceful as always. It's a grossly privileged take to say sit down and die nicely, don't cause problems
Pacifism is privilege@Robo105 @anolandria Also, the peaceful BLM protests gained supporters but no changes. In my home town literally nothing changed. White people dont like black people especially in large groups. No support for such 'violent gatherings' or 'stupid liberals' All over the country, nothing changed.
Support is fine and dandy. Change is what's important. I can talk all day long I support you I'll help you. It means nothing until I actually do something to help you -
@Robo105 @anolandria It's incredibly naïve to believe that protesting completely peacefully doesn't "give them an excuse." Did you or did you not just watch them gun down an innocent woman and then call her a domestic terrorist?
Let me be perfectly clear: they will declare martial law when and where they want. They are not waiting around for someone to shove a cop or block traffic.
They haven't yet because the majority is still passive and going about our lives. Check back in November.
@dresstokilt I've been saying this for decades. After the great depression, workers rights weren't gained over a negotiating table. They were won by fighting Pinkertons in the streets.
The gays didn't win acceptance through peacefull conversation with cops.
And, and, and, and ...All arguments to the contrary are just admissions of not reading or understanding history, or even more pathetic: gleeful naivete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
@Robo105 @anolandria -
@dresstokilt I've been saying this for decades. After the great depression, workers rights weren't gained over a negotiating table. They were won by fighting Pinkertons in the streets.
The gays didn't win acceptance through peacefull conversation with cops.
And, and, and, and ...All arguments to the contrary are just admissions of not reading or understanding history, or even more pathetic: gleeful naivete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
@Robo105 @anolandria@MattMerk @dresstokilt @anolandria Well we were not talking about union rights but I would argue that violent resistance was only part of the work to gain workers rights. Yet, the usa has broken union rights after of Reagan. None of it works without public support. The idea of peaceful resistance is weak is a complete misreading of the how it works.
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