this graduation speech moment is notable, and her amazed shock at having failed to read the room feels instructive.
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@danbrotherston @howking @cabel Not only were the Luddites not against the machinery, many of them were MASTER USERS OF IT. Exactly as you said, the protest wasn't against machinery but against what it was doing to entire societies.
And it's the same fight today.
@ZDL @danbrotherston @howking @cabel
The owners were making 1000 to 10000 times more profit from the workers, but giving less pay and poorer conditions, though more people had jobs.It was not about the machines, but objecting to greed.
The AI LLM is different:
The providers are not actually making a profit.
Contentious that the companies using make more money,
It may not work well.
A few providers.
Content often illegally obtained.
The marketing is lies. -
@ZDL @danbrotherston @howking @cabel
The owners were making 1000 to 10000 times more profit from the workers, but giving less pay and poorer conditions, though more people had jobs.It was not about the machines, but objecting to greed.
The AI LLM is different:
The providers are not actually making a profit.
Contentious that the companies using make more money,
It may not work well.
A few providers.
Content often illegally obtained.
The marketing is lies.@raymaccarthy @danbrotherston @howking @cabel Well, yes. The unmitigated failure of LLM technology to actually turn a profit is also a strong rejoinder to "this is the next industrial revolution".
What I'm always pondering is "What examples of world-changing technology in the past has required people to force it into other people's maws to get it used?"
The closest I can get to is vaccination, and that was a very different situation.
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@SmartmanApps @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel but it kind of does? i mean theres mathematicians acknowledging its generating some pretty decent proofs of previously unsolved stuff and so forth. i dont see why people are always clinging to these by now obviously false claims of inaptitude when the issues are much more standard capitalism type
@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
" it kind of does?" - no, it totally doesn't"its generating some pretty decent proofs" - worded proofs, but as we've seen repeatedly https://dotnet.social/@SmartmanApps/116000100388648367
it will often SAY the right thing to do, then not do it, because it doesn't understand what those words mean. Witness where it says "inside the brackets", but removes the brackets, and in algebra applies what it says to one side of the equation only, instead of both sides (and concludes "1=0"
) -
I can't imagine "the internet" getting boo'd like that in 2001 Grads would have cheered along for "internet"
Or even like bitcoin in say 2010, lots of people were skeptical but would not have just boo'd
This is remarkably unpopular.
@futurebird @cabel Notable too, her next line, "A few years ago, A.I. was not a factor in our lives" *does* get cheered, so they're clearly not out for the speaker themselves, but the specific message.
As opposed to people who thought Conservatives were confused when they cheered when one of the Conservative speakers was say "Do you want impeachment?", and was not expecting the cheering then either...and figured they could point out that they were *supposed* to be opposed to another impeachment of Trump this recent year.
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@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
" it kind of does?" - no, it totally doesn't"its generating some pretty decent proofs" - worded proofs, but as we've seen repeatedly https://dotnet.social/@SmartmanApps/116000100388648367
it will often SAY the right thing to do, then not do it, because it doesn't understand what those words mean. Witness where it says "inside the brackets", but removes the brackets, and in algebra applies what it says to one side of the equation only, instead of both sides (and concludes "1=0" )@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
"obviously false claims of inaptitude" - nope. See my thread for the proof of it's ineptitude at Maths -
@cabel @ShaulaEvans I'm guessing those grads have discovered what the job market is like, since AI-related layoffs.
@deborahh @cabel @ShaulaEvans Don't even need to discover - just need to have seen the result from others in the market, or just...have heard enough about LLMs to be opposed to them.
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@waderoberts @cabel Knuth and Torvalds are notable exceptions.
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this graduation speech moment is notable, and her amazed shock at having failed to read the room feels instructive.
when you’re inside the bubble, you think everybody else is. but everybody isn’t.
Type 1 AI Psychosis
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@waderoberts @cabel I mean, I'm impressed. They do perform much better than I would have expected based just on general understanding how an LLM works.
Which is not at all to say I'm in any way impressed by their ability to perform the tasks the "AI" evangelists proclaim it's good for.
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@futurebird
Proponents are always comparing it to the industrial revolution, but maybe it's better compared to the likes of leaded gasoline, CFC aerosol cans, or asbestos anything.Maybe some of us have learned to spot a pattern.
@cabel@Landa @futurebird @cabel I think asbestos is quite perfect comparison.
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this graduation speech moment is notable, and her amazed shock at having failed to read the room feels instructive.
when you’re inside the bubble, you think everybody else is. but everybody isn’t.
@cabel drank too much A1 sauce / koolaid
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@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
"obviously false claims of inaptitude" - nope. See my thread for the proof of it's ineptitude at Maths@SmartmanApps @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel half of these are outdated and the other half is reasonable, but its kind of the nature of nondeterminism that its gonna be stupid sometimes. still theres some concerningly good results too and its just a bad angle to attack the actual issues from
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@Landa @futurebird @cabel I think asbestos is quite perfect comparison.
I was going to say "no asbestos is useful" but thinking about that more I think you are correct, because so are LLMs in a very narrow setting, just like asbestos, but instead we have foolish business persons who want to put this stuff in everything.
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@cabel Here, too, you’re in an “AI-hater” bubble, but AI is here to stay—just as smashing machines didn’t stop the Industrial Revolution.
@howking @cabel machines in the Industrial Revolution increased productivity and created profits nearly immediately.
AI only exists today because it allowed to burn cash at tremendous rates. Even the simple online chat bots would be gone if VC money dried up, because they lose money with every query.
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@danbrotherston @cabel Just like AI haters aren’t opposed to the environmental and financial impacts of AI; they’re simply afraid of being replaced and don’t want to learn new skills.
@howking
thats just your assumption missing a proof.
I hate AI even more than any other dictatorship in this world. Because thats what it is. I dont want to have it in my life. And the environmental destructive impact is devastating. All the fields of science togehther where AI - not this guessing shit - can be useful do not need those obscene data gulags. AI is TechCorpFashism! -
@SmartmanApps @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel half of these are outdated and the other half is reasonable, but its kind of the nature of nondeterminism that its gonna be stupid sometimes. still theres some concerningly good results too and its just a bad angle to attack the actual issues from
@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
"half of these are outdated" - nope. AI still can't do Maths"the nature of nondeterminism" - Maths is deterministic. AI is using heuristics when it should be using algorithms, hence it's inability at Maths
"its gonna be stupid sometimes" - it's ALWAYS stupid. Even the stupid can get 25% right on multiple choice tests - doesn't mean they know how to answer ANY of them
"theres some concerningly good results too" - no there isn't https://dotnet.social/@SmartmanApps/114929904096819843
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@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
"half of these are outdated" - nope. AI still can't do Maths"the nature of nondeterminism" - Maths is deterministic. AI is using heuristics when it should be using algorithms, hence it's inability at Maths
"its gonna be stupid sometimes" - it's ALWAYS stupid. Even the stupid can get 25% right on multiple choice tests - doesn't mean they know how to answer ANY of them
"theres some concerningly good results too" - no there isn't https://dotnet.social/@SmartmanApps/114929904096819843
@SmartmanApps @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel do you genuinely think calculators could do anything at the imo or prove theorems in research lol
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@SmartmanApps @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel do you genuinely think calculators could do anything at the imo or prove theorems in research lol
@uniwuni @GhostOnTheHalfShell @cabel
"prove theorems in research" - AI didn't prove any theorems, it merely regurgitated some words which, if translated into correct Maths - something it doesn't know how to do - gives a proof. None of it's answers were set out as proofs. Terrence Tao wrote a blog about this recently, and if you read it you'll find how much Mathematicians had to guide it along the way to arrive at an actual proof. -
RE: https://masto.ai/@GhostOnTheHalfShell/116519255422938868
For so many reasons, AI is not the next industrial revolution. The math does not math. The more advanced it becomes the more tokens are spent. The subscriptions people are buying right now are heavily subsidize to the tune of between five and 12 times the cost in tokens. The companies are trying to wriggle out from that real reality. Beyond this is the infrastructure reality that distinguishes data centers from previous bubbles like rail or dot com.
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@futurebird
Proponents are always comparing it to the industrial revolution, but maybe it's better compared to the likes of leaded gasoline, CFC aerosol cans, or asbestos anything.Maybe some of us have learned to spot a pattern.
@cabel@Landa @futurebird @cabel from what I've read the industrial revolution brought a sudden degradation in the living conditions of textile workers, the destruction of their environment, child labour in inhuman conditions, and *worse textile products*. So, yeah, it seems like an apt comparison, if we are all textile workers now.
