I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
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@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Do you think there are any constructive ways to do so? Is it a matter of context/tone or is it just always unwelcome?
Frame it as trying to tell a stranger their fly is unzipped or their tie clashes:
- do you need to do it publically?
- do you need to do it at all?Maybe, just maybe, the interface reminding people they're not using alt text is way way more than enough?
It's interesting that I've never gotten harassed for using *insufficient* or even *incorrect* alt text - most of the scolds/bots never bother to actually read it or can't evaluate it.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield Second sentence onward could have easily been a description of many people's experience of Bluesky, which is extraordinarily counterproductive given that the people doing the hectoring ostensibly want to see people depart from other shores.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield Thanks for introducing me to the term "context collapse" and so aptly explaining something I've noticed but failed to find words to explain myself. I feel like too many users on here drive potential friends and allies away by holding them to unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. What mostly works for me is living by the following rules: don't intend to offend, and don't intend to be offended.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
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@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
@Moss @adamgreenfield One thing I learned after seven decades is you will always be disappointed if you expect to be related to in a certain manner.
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@benjamineskola @drewtowler I don’t think there are or can be any hard and fast rules, which is part of what makes this such a minefield for folks who struggle with social context. “Don’t be a dick about it” is obviously and sadly an inadequate heuristic.
@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Right, like for one thing, even assuming it’s ever justified to point out someone’s lack of alt text, the way one would address that would be very different depending on whether it’s someone who just doesn’t know about alt text versus someone who usually remembers but happened to forget this time versus whatever other category.
And while I tend to assume that the people doing it are well-meaning, it so easily comes across the wrong way that I’m not sure it’d ever be worthwhile.
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@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
@Moss @adamgreenfield I’ve seen people double down on intentionally never adding alt text out of apparent spite at being asked to include alt text, which feels like failing at the ‘don’t be a dick’ requirement regardless of how obnoxious the ‘scolds’ are.
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@Moss @adamgreenfield I’ve seen people double down on intentionally never adding alt text out of apparent spite at being asked to include alt text, which feels like failing at the ‘don’t be a dick’ requirement regardless of how obnoxious the ‘scolds’ are.
@benjamineskola @Moss Possibly so, but that kind of oppositional-defiant gesture is both (a) completely predictable and (b) a useful signal. I’m less inclined to think of it as “being a clown,” and more as “this person is trying to shore up their sense of autonomous judgment when, for whatever reason, they have not had that sense affirmed.”
I think the larger question to ask is how the system distributes harms – both the harms to people who need them being unable to avail themselves of image descriptions, and the harms to one’s ego caused by inartful requests or demands for those descriptions. We treat the latter as not-real and costless, but I don’t think they are.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield There are a million venues online where one can be lazy or clueless and no one will bother about it.
I'm glad to participate in a culture of going the extra mile to e.g. add alt-text to accommodate blind folk.
I don't want "allies, comrades and friends" who kinda suck.
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@benjamineskola @Moss Possibly so, but that kind of oppositional-defiant gesture is both (a) completely predictable and (b) a useful signal. I’m less inclined to think of it as “being a clown,” and more as “this person is trying to shore up their sense of autonomous judgment when, for whatever reason, they have not had that sense affirmed.”
I think the larger question to ask is how the system distributes harms – both the harms to people who need them being unable to avail themselves of image descriptions, and the harms to one’s ego caused by inartful requests or demands for those descriptions. We treat the latter as not-real and costless, but I don’t think they are.
@adamgreenfield @benjamineskola That notion of unacknowledged harms reminded me of something bigger I meant to describe. Culture writ large involves social norms; part of the modern existential crisis is that all norms are shot to hell, for better and worse.
One of the ways we establish a social norm (constructively building culture) is through multiply repeating the messages: this is ok, this is not ok. Naturally many people fear/hate change, and they want to stay in their old culture wherever they go. Karl Pilkington bringing bags of British crisps as he travels the world, US tourists demanding hamburgers in Paris. They hate being scolded for not embracing something unfamiliar.
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@adamgreenfield There are a million venues online where one can be lazy or clueless and no one will bother about it.
I'm glad to participate in a culture of going the extra mile to e.g. add alt-text to accommodate blind folk.
I don't want "allies, comrades and friends" who kinda suck.
@carapace Good luck with that. We all kinda suck.
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@carapace Good luck with that. We all kinda suck.
@adamgreenfield Which is why it's important to do just a little bit of work to not suck, eh?
Alt-text in particular is not a "complicated question", eh?
If you saw a blind person who needed your help crossing a street or something you would help without hesitation and feel good about yourself afterward.
Well, alt-text is that. Folks who don't get that may not be "moral monsters", but I'm not gonna miss them.
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@adamgreenfield Which is why it's important to do just a little bit of work to not suck, eh?
Alt-text in particular is not a "complicated question", eh?
If you saw a blind person who needed your help crossing a street or something you would help without hesitation and feel good about yourself afterward.
Well, alt-text is that. Folks who don't get that may not be "moral monsters", but I'm not gonna miss them.
@carapace Maybe others will? That’s kinda the point.
But yes, I get that there’s no point to continuing to discuss this with you. Nothing I say will change your heart or mind, whereas I simply do not accept your framing of the stakes. It’s probably for the best, then, if I simply wish you good luck.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield
I take a break from that behavior, not by removing myself but by removing the offender.Case in point: I think alt-text is cool, and I always add it to photos. But if I forget and you decide it's your job to "correct" me, I will block you without remorse and without hesitation.
We CHOOSE our online community. Behavior police are not welcome in mine.
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It’s not a binary, I feel. There can be good-natured ways to add alt text to other people’s posts and crappy ways to do it. An expression of gratitude for the OP, a generosity of spirit can go a long way.
But also people are erratic. Sometimes I’m in a shitty mood and will frame things badly.
You post at the top frames the landscape beautifully
@urlyman @adamgreenfield @douginamug
You can be really helpful, pleasant and understanding in a message about missing alt-text, which the recipient then publicly thanks you for, and still get a foul-mouthed tirade from some intolerant recent arrival from Musk's domain. Guess how I know...
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
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@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
@Moss @adamgreenfield As far as my knowledge stretches (which is admittedly not far) the architecture of Mastodon means *you* see only one respondent saying that but that may not be true for the original poster.
This is not to say there are no dicks having temper tantrums! I'm merely emphasising that even the "objective facts" can differ from how they are perceived by another.
(Cf. the "I don't see any racist abuse" problem On Here, which is the weaponised and turbocharged version) -
@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Right, like for one thing, even assuming it’s ever justified to point out someone’s lack of alt text, the way one would address that would be very different depending on whether it’s someone who just doesn’t know about alt text versus someone who usually remembers but happened to forget this time versus whatever other category.
And while I tend to assume that the people doing it are well-meaning, it so easily comes across the wrong way that I’m not sure it’d ever be worthwhile.
@benjamineskola @adamgreenfield @drewtowler Judgy “allies” make it difficult for me to request alt text as a blind person, because their shitty behavior colors my requests as potentially passive-aggressive when it’s like, no, there’s no high horse here. I just want to know what color the cute kitty is and what it dared to knock off the counter this time.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
(Muting conversation now. Thanks for your thoughtful reflections, everyone who reflected thoughtfully.)
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield I might be one of the people you describe. I can see you muted the conversation, so I'll not add too much more than that. Just wanted to raise my hand and also add that, as potentially your target group, I do not think of people that make choices of tool or platform or mobility mode that I don't like as moral monsters. I wonder where that judgment (someone being a moral monster) comes from in this context.
