I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield ugh. Are the people doing this getting the feedback directly? (I try to when I see it.) Because the people most likely to be dishing out tech criticism are the least likely to infer social criticism from my experience.
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@adamgreenfield ugh. Are the people doing this getting the feedback directly? (I try to when I see it.) Because the people most likely to be dishing out tech criticism are the least likely to infer social criticism from my experience.
@douginamug Hahahahaha, quite.
I’d go a step further, actually, and (noting that I myself feel interpellated by the category) frankly identity this with certain manifestations of neurodiversity – both in the sense that some very nearly religious Wrong has been committed; in the sense of obligation to speak that perception of wrongness unambiguously and directly to the party responsible; in the inability to perceive that this might not always be necessary, appropriate or welcome; and, as you suggest, in the inability to map this account of a social interaction onto one’s own conduct.
I don’t know what to do about it other than describe the problematic behavior – without judgment, and as gently as possible – and hope than one or two folks recognize themselves in it.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield I stay on Mastodon because there are a few accounts I like. But it's definitely getting swamped by judgy "allies". I don't want to know about what people think of JK Rowling apropos of nothing. I don't want a passive-agressive comment on my post adding alt text (I'll block then delete and repost). And I certainly don't want people following me then asking for money.
#enshittification #mastodon -
@adamgreenfield I stay on Mastodon because there are a few accounts I like. But it's definitely getting swamped by judgy "allies". I don't want to know about what people think of JK Rowling apropos of nothing. I don't want a passive-agressive comment on my post adding alt text (I'll block then delete and repost). And I certainly don't want people following me then asking for money.
#enshittification #mastodon@drewtowler I enjoy adding alt text, so I rarely forget. But if I happened to do so, and someone pulled that shit on me? They’re getting blocked on the spot. Life’s too short.
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@douginamug Hahahahaha, quite.
I’d go a step further, actually, and (noting that I myself feel interpellated by the category) frankly identity this with certain manifestations of neurodiversity – both in the sense that some very nearly religious Wrong has been committed; in the sense of obligation to speak that perception of wrongness unambiguously and directly to the party responsible; in the inability to perceive that this might not always be necessary, appropriate or welcome; and, as you suggest, in the inability to map this account of a social interaction onto one’s own conduct.
I don’t know what to do about it other than describe the problematic behavior – without judgment, and as gently as possible – and hope than one or two folks recognize themselves in it.
It’s not a binary, I feel. There can be good-natured ways to add alt text to other people’s posts and crappy ways to do it. An expression of gratitude for the OP, a generosity of spirit can go a long way.
But also people are erratic. Sometimes I’m in a shitty mood and will frame things badly.
You post at the top frames the landscape beautifully
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@drewtowler I enjoy adding alt text, so I rarely forget. But if I happened to do so, and someone pulled that shit on me? They’re getting blocked on the spot. Life’s too short.
@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Do you think there are any constructive ways to do so? Is it a matter of context/tone or is it just always unwelcome?
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@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Do you think there are any constructive ways to do so? Is it a matter of context/tone or is it just always unwelcome?
@benjamineskola @drewtowler I don’t think there are or can be any hard and fast rules, which is part of what makes this such a minefield for folks who struggle with social context. “Don’t be a dick about it” is obviously and sadly an inadequate heuristic.
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@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Do you think there are any constructive ways to do so? Is it a matter of context/tone or is it just always unwelcome?
@benjamineskola @adamgreenfield To me it always feels like passive-aggressive personal criticism and is therefore always unwelcome. That may be linked to me being neurodivergent or it may not - I really don't know. It is what it is.
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@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Do you think there are any constructive ways to do so? Is it a matter of context/tone or is it just always unwelcome?
Frame it as trying to tell a stranger their fly is unzipped or their tie clashes:
- do you need to do it publically?
- do you need to do it at all?Maybe, just maybe, the interface reminding people they're not using alt text is way way more than enough?
It's interesting that I've never gotten harassed for using *insufficient* or even *incorrect* alt text - most of the scolds/bots never bother to actually read it or can't evaluate it.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield Second sentence onward could have easily been a description of many people's experience of Bluesky, which is extraordinarily counterproductive given that the people doing the hectoring ostensibly want to see people depart from other shores.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield Thanks for introducing me to the term "context collapse" and so aptly explaining something I've noticed but failed to find words to explain myself. I feel like too many users on here drive potential friends and allies away by holding them to unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. What mostly works for me is living by the following rules: don't intend to offend, and don't intend to be offended.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
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@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
@Moss @adamgreenfield One thing I learned after seven decades is you will always be disappointed if you expect to be related to in a certain manner.
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@benjamineskola @drewtowler I don’t think there are or can be any hard and fast rules, which is part of what makes this such a minefield for folks who struggle with social context. “Don’t be a dick about it” is obviously and sadly an inadequate heuristic.
@adamgreenfield @drewtowler Right, like for one thing, even assuming it’s ever justified to point out someone’s lack of alt text, the way one would address that would be very different depending on whether it’s someone who just doesn’t know about alt text versus someone who usually remembers but happened to forget this time versus whatever other category.
And while I tend to assume that the people doing it are well-meaning, it so easily comes across the wrong way that I’m not sure it’d ever be worthwhile.
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@adamgreenfield From a “scold” perspective: I frequently see people posting either bad content (from FB, Linkedin, etc) or good photos but without alt text, and ONE (1) commenter will say “please don’t share fake news” or “this is a lovely photo, please add alt text so more people can share and appreciate it”… and the OP then has an absolute temper tantrum about the humorless scolds ruining their experience on mastodon.
I completely agree with that “don’t be a dick about it” guideline, but *usually* what I see is humorless dicks complaining that *everyone else here* and “mastodon scold culture” is the problem.
@Moss @adamgreenfield I’ve seen people double down on intentionally never adding alt text out of apparent spite at being asked to include alt text, which feels like failing at the ‘don’t be a dick’ requirement regardless of how obnoxious the ‘scolds’ are.
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@Moss @adamgreenfield I’ve seen people double down on intentionally never adding alt text out of apparent spite at being asked to include alt text, which feels like failing at the ‘don’t be a dick’ requirement regardless of how obnoxious the ‘scolds’ are.
@benjamineskola @Moss Possibly so, but that kind of oppositional-defiant gesture is both (a) completely predictable and (b) a useful signal. I’m less inclined to think of it as “being a clown,” and more as “this person is trying to shore up their sense of autonomous judgment when, for whatever reason, they have not had that sense affirmed.”
I think the larger question to ask is how the system distributes harms – both the harms to people who need them being unable to avail themselves of image descriptions, and the harms to one’s ego caused by inartful requests or demands for those descriptions. We treat the latter as not-real and costless, but I don’t think they are.
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I’m not trying to tell anyone how to show up here, please believe me.
I *do* want to pass on that no fewer than three people whose presence On Here I really enjoy have recently told me they need to (at the very least) take an extended break from being here. And it’s all because of the same set of issues: what they consistently described, often in identical words, as the incessant, joyless judgment about choices of tool or platform or mobility mode, tone and language policing, hectoring about missing alt texts, humorlessness, etc.
I think a lot of this is due to context collapse, and probably also the desire to exert shape and control over *something* in a world that is otherwise terrifyingly unresponsive to our needs. But please do consider that others – including many who would otherwise number among your natural allies, comrades and friends – might arrive at different answers to complicated questions than you have, and that it doesn’t make them moral monsters. Thanks.
@adamgreenfield There are a million venues online where one can be lazy or clueless and no one will bother about it.
I'm glad to participate in a culture of going the extra mile to e.g. add alt-text to accommodate blind folk.
I don't want "allies, comrades and friends" who kinda suck.
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@benjamineskola @Moss Possibly so, but that kind of oppositional-defiant gesture is both (a) completely predictable and (b) a useful signal. I’m less inclined to think of it as “being a clown,” and more as “this person is trying to shore up their sense of autonomous judgment when, for whatever reason, they have not had that sense affirmed.”
I think the larger question to ask is how the system distributes harms – both the harms to people who need them being unable to avail themselves of image descriptions, and the harms to one’s ego caused by inartful requests or demands for those descriptions. We treat the latter as not-real and costless, but I don’t think they are.
@adamgreenfield @benjamineskola That notion of unacknowledged harms reminded me of something bigger I meant to describe. Culture writ large involves social norms; part of the modern existential crisis is that all norms are shot to hell, for better and worse.
One of the ways we establish a social norm (constructively building culture) is through multiply repeating the messages: this is ok, this is not ok. Naturally many people fear/hate change, and they want to stay in their old culture wherever they go. Karl Pilkington bringing bags of British crisps as he travels the world, US tourists demanding hamburgers in Paris. They hate being scolded for not embracing something unfamiliar.
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@adamgreenfield There are a million venues online where one can be lazy or clueless and no one will bother about it.
I'm glad to participate in a culture of going the extra mile to e.g. add alt-text to accommodate blind folk.
I don't want "allies, comrades and friends" who kinda suck.
@carapace Good luck with that. We all kinda suck.
