"How will an LLM change the bedpans in the nursing home?""Oh.
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So, ages ago, I remember edges and nodes on graphs as one of those reliably handy duals that you should switch regularly to check for lemmas (math) and bugs (programming). Would it not be possible, if less likely, for either side to have adopted the other convention?
@clew @nonnihil @futurebird @mxchara
Each interpretation makes sense for their community - it's the definition of "state" that's the core problem.
The primary thing that defines an autonomous system is the fact that it makes decisions - the purpose of using a state machine diagram in that context is to clarify when decisions about <what to do next> are made and what triggers them. A single state can go to different decisions, but each decision selects one state. So the behavior is the state and the decision is the edge.
But in software engineering (this is my best explanation as someone who doesn't use them this way!), the state is the steady state situation that running the function takes you to - the output of the function call - and the transition is the time when the program is running and the information's state is indeterminate. Different functions can be called from an output, but each function should only have one output given the previous state.
Because the two groups are using the same tool for different things, different conventions emerge. I don't think either could evolve into the opposite convention.
(Unlike the whole i/j thing. Mechanical engineers use "i" for imaginary numbers. But electrical engineers use "j", because "i" is already in use representing current - because that's what Ampere used.)
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@futurebird
This is what I've been bullying my AI hopeful colleagues for for years.
Robotics hasn't gotten better since the 1990s because it turns out human motion is incredibly precise, adaptable, and REALLY COMPLICATED
We physically can't make an arm shaped thing that works like an arm. We can make an arm shaped thing that can do certain arm like tasks, maybe pick up an ergonomic object, press a few buttons, or I guess flip over packages for 4 hours per that one new "AI" stream. But that same arm can't do surgery, it can't drive operate heavy machinery, hell, it couldn't reach behind a couch to plug in a vacuum with near the ease we have.
I will admit, the compute is probably there. We can probably simulate the motion of a person enough that an AI scale compute system could do the math to plug in a vacuum. But motors aren't getting smaller. Not without becoming uselessly weak. We've hit the physics barrier of electromagnetism.
Hell, look at any video of an incredibly sophisticated hand and just conceptualize how many hand positions it can make. Then try to make one you know it can't. Cross your fingers. Touch your thumb to each finger tip, see how fast you can do it. You are so much more sophisticated than a robot.
And obviously, we could just, redesign the whole world to accommodate bots with just a slew of specialized tools to be a portion of human ability, but that's quite expensive since we've already built the world to our liking.
So unless we want to rebuild the world with the logic of an Amazon Warehouse, the bots aren't going to take over for a while.@nagaram @futurebird I wonder if bioengineering is part of the solution here, by growing artificial muscles in a lab or something. -
There’s the tech solutionist who invented leaded gas, became bedbound, invented a movement harness, and died strangled in it, right?
Thomas Midgley Jr. also invented Freon.
Even though his intentions seemed to have been good he was kind of an anti-Norman Borlaug in his results.
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There’s the tech solutionist who invented leaded gas, became bedbound, invented a movement harness, and died strangled in it, right?
@clew @mawhrin @futurebird And CFCs! He truly had a very special kind of genius.
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@resipiscent @futurebird that is a good thing though. Slows down creeps.
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From what I understand, one problem of robotics is indeed software, as in understanding and implementing real-time coordination of complex movements (things that are obvious to us because we don't even think about it).
And AI is indeed a path considered to bring promising results (I mean, considered by people who are actually working on it, not just by bullshit-peddlers).@lienrag @futurebird
AI is indeed part of robotics for complex movements, but not the LLM kind of AI -
"How will an LLM change the bedpans in the nursing home?"
"Oh. Robots. Obviously."
"... So, you'd say the greatest obstacle to robot home assistance is... what? Software?"
"Ah. I see why you are skeptical. But you have not considered that the LLM will also design better robots."
"Really? That sounds amazing. Can we do it right now?"
"Two years."
"Oh."
"..."
"..."
"What do you mean. 'oh'?"
"Nothing. I'm... I'm so excited. For the robots. Like you said."
"You're mocking me."
"No. I would never."@futurebird Yeah, according to Nazi-Altman I my line of work have been completely redundant since last year ... however my work don't seem to got the memo and still needs me every day ... frakking con men and their willing dupes
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"How will an LLM change the bedpans in the nursing home?"
"Oh. Robots. Obviously."
"... So, you'd say the greatest obstacle to robot home assistance is... what? Software?"
"Ah. I see why you are skeptical. But you have not considered that the LLM will also design better robots."
"Really? That sounds amazing. Can we do it right now?"
"Two years."
"Oh."
"..."
"..."
"What do you mean. 'oh'?"
"Nothing. I'm... I'm so excited. For the robots. Like you said."
"You're mocking me."
"No. I would never."It's not changing bedpans which is the issue so much as application of barrier cream and wiping, and changing diapers when bedpans are no longer an option (which afaik is far more common over most care settings). And catheterisation. Things which even supposedly trained humans don't get right often enough. And then there's making an actual human actually comfortable on a bed when they can no longer move themselves to do it; almost impossible for professional carers.
1/
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It's not changing bedpans which is the issue so much as application of barrier cream and wiping, and changing diapers when bedpans are no longer an option (which afaik is far more common over most care settings). And catheterisation. Things which even supposedly trained humans don't get right often enough. And then there's making an actual human actually comfortable on a bed when they can no longer move themselves to do it; almost impossible for professional carers.
1/
I could suggest that no-one should be permitted to sell such a robot unless they are willing to demonstrate it on their own very young offspring, but I suspect that would present too limited a mental challenge for many captains of industry.
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"How will an LLM change the bedpans in the nursing home?"
"Oh. Robots. Obviously."
"... So, you'd say the greatest obstacle to robot home assistance is... what? Software?"
"Ah. I see why you are skeptical. But you have not considered that the LLM will also design better robots."
"Really? That sounds amazing. Can we do it right now?"
"Two years."
"Oh."
"..."
"..."
"What do you mean. 'oh'?"
"Nothing. I'm... I'm so excited. For the robots. Like you said."
"You're mocking me."
"No. I would never."@futurebird So, the question there is very simple too: "Given the kinds of budgets nursing homes tend to have (basically none), how are they going to afford the robot?" -
@futurebird
This is what I've been bullying my AI hopeful colleagues for for years.
Robotics hasn't gotten better since the 1990s because it turns out human motion is incredibly precise, adaptable, and REALLY COMPLICATED
We physically can't make an arm shaped thing that works like an arm. We can make an arm shaped thing that can do certain arm like tasks, maybe pick up an ergonomic object, press a few buttons, or I guess flip over packages for 4 hours per that one new "AI" stream. But that same arm can't do surgery, it can't drive operate heavy machinery, hell, it couldn't reach behind a couch to plug in a vacuum with near the ease we have.
I will admit, the compute is probably there. We can probably simulate the motion of a person enough that an AI scale compute system could do the math to plug in a vacuum. But motors aren't getting smaller. Not without becoming uselessly weak. We've hit the physics barrier of electromagnetism.
Hell, look at any video of an incredibly sophisticated hand and just conceptualize how many hand positions it can make. Then try to make one you know it can't. Cross your fingers. Touch your thumb to each finger tip, see how fast you can do it. You are so much more sophisticated than a robot.
And obviously, we could just, redesign the whole world to accommodate bots with just a slew of specialized tools to be a portion of human ability, but that's quite expensive since we've already built the world to our liking.
So unless we want to rebuild the world with the logic of an Amazon Warehouse, the bots aren't going to take over for a while.@nagaram @futurebird I think prosthetics are getting pretty close.
> But motors aren't getting smaller. Not without becoming uselessly weak. We've hit the physics barrier of electromagnetism.
Aren't electroactive polymer actuators a thing now? -
@lienrag @futurebird
AI is indeed part of robotics for complex movements, but not the LLM kind of AI@lienrag @futurebird
Mind you, some of the demos are quite impressive, even as we know that they're probably rigged and certainly carefully choreographed to stay within the envelope of current capabilities -
Thomas Midgley Jr. also invented Freon.
Even though his intentions seemed to have been good he was kind of an anti-Norman Borlaug in his results.
@Landa @clew @futurebird he was perfectly well aware of the effects of the leaded gasoline would have on public health; the dude was an utter gobshite.
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@Landa @clew @futurebird he was perfectly well aware of the effects of the leaded gasoline would have on public health; the dude was an utter gobshite.
@mawhrin
Oh I got that mixed up. the problem with Freon wasn’t realized until a few decades later.
You’re right about the Tetraethyllead.
Thanks for the clarification. -
@dingodog19 @futurebird @mxchara or looked at the cost of even a single stepper motor
I'm mostly a school teacher and hobbyist. I was very excited about home automation and one of my more naive early projects was to make it so I could open and close the windows of my apartment via the internet. Then I could make algorithms and save on AC by switching dynamically to open windows based on the wind outside, time of day, humidity and temperature.
If you know about windows or motors you are seeing the big flaw and the real problem already.
1/
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I'm mostly a school teacher and hobbyist. I was very excited about home automation and one of my more naive early projects was to make it so I could open and close the windows of my apartment via the internet. Then I could make algorithms and save on AC by switching dynamically to open windows based on the wind outside, time of day, humidity and temperature.
If you know about windows or motors you are seeing the big flaw and the real problem already.
1/
But knowing nothing (this was 15 years ago) I thought "I just need to find a motor that can open and close each window and set it up with wifi and hook it into my self-built home automation system.
Do you know how HARD it is to open an window? If you want to open it the way that people do, you need a motor that does not exist. There are systems that can replace the pulleys, but they aren't cheap and installing them is no joke.
2/
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But knowing nothing (this was 15 years ago) I thought "I just need to find a motor that can open and close each window and set it up with wifi and hook it into my self-built home automation system.
Do you know how HARD it is to open an window? If you want to open it the way that people do, you need a motor that does not exist. There are systems that can replace the pulleys, but they aren't cheap and installing them is no joke.
2/
I thought "get a motor to open the window" was a simple matter. It was not. The best solution seemed to involve changing the whole way windows were designed, so that less expensive motors could reliably open and close the system.
A good home aid will notice that a room is stuffy and open the window. Close it when it rains. This isn't their main job function. It's just an extra thing that most "robots" can't do.
3/
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I thought "get a motor to open the window" was a simple matter. It was not. The best solution seemed to involve changing the whole way windows were designed, so that less expensive motors could reliably open and close the system.
A good home aid will notice that a room is stuffy and open the window. Close it when it rains. This isn't their main job function. It's just an extra thing that most "robots" can't do.
3/
When it came to home automation I had much more luck with automatic watering systems for plants. Turning water on and off is something you can do, and it can be very powerful.
Since I'm rebooting my roof garden I'm making a new watering system now.
Automation can be very hit or miss. Some "easy" tasks are hard.
Opening a window? It's a big deal.
4/4
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@Taco_lad @cinebox @dingodog19 @mxchara
It turns out many windows are designed to be hard to open so that ... people don't rob you. And our windows are old.
It might have been easier with newer windows, but I would need to replace all of the windows. OR make ugly 3D printed inserts that I could control. (I considered this, but it was too ... solarpunk in a bad way)
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When it came to home automation I had much more luck with automatic watering systems for plants. Turning water on and off is something you can do, and it can be very powerful.
Since I'm rebooting my roof garden I'm making a new watering system now.
Automation can be very hit or miss. Some "easy" tasks are hard.
Opening a window? It's a big deal.
4/4
@futurebird creating a remote watering system is on the todo list for my "new" house, but a bit below, getting a new roof and fix the cimney
