What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@CedC @Linux_in_a_Bit Or… consider this: it also often hallucinates complete bullshit.
No, LLMs are not a solution.@Razemix @Linux_in_a_Bit yes it does allucinate, not its not «often», and most of the time it does it is because the answer is not documented.
And if it does... Well it will simply not work.
LLM is a (biais) tool with a _few_ use cases; To me documentation is one of them.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit
Another big issue is the intense use of jargon in replies to questions. Sure, it's a faster way to get information from your brain onto a forum, but a new user to Ubuntu is not going to understand it, and isn't likely to go looking up every third word.@Bwaz @Linux_in_a_Bit yes! I always have kind replies when I ask for help, but I don't understand most of them
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I "earned" a year ban from the Linux channel on the IRC network I used for insisting I looked at the man page and didn't find the answer.
Most useful thing I learnt in that exchange was that "/" searches man pages.
Luckily I was already deep enough that didn't kill my enthusiasm.
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@mtrnord @Linux_in_a_Bit as frustrating as that is, it helps to remember people that do help are global and probably not in your time zone.
@Linux_in_a_Bit @Kancept sure. But in days where chats are not fire and forget like irc the chat is asynchronous. So after a day or 2 the timezone argument IMHO doesn't work anymore. I am totally fine if a response takes a day or so. Sure it is frustrating it takes that long if something breaks on you but its reasonable. But beyond that it quickly turns into feeling like you aren't heard
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit The primary reason i bought a system76 pre-installed laptop for my initial transition was the "create a ticket" button it has in the settings. Nice people who get paid to help me help me when i push it and give me copy-pasteable terminal commands by email.
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I hear what you are saying, but, there are caveat's to it.
If you go from Windows/MacOS to ARCH or a rolling-release type of distro then you can expect some folk to be a little short on patience with newbies.
Not because they're unhelpful but because its a pretty silly thing to do.
After 2 years on Linux Mint I have just moved to Debian 13 and GNOME desktop was strange at first. But I still don't think I could be bothered with an ARCH type distro.
I think if you do your research and choose a distro recommended for learners there are plenty of helpful, patient, folk willing to walk you through the basics.
Doesn't mean you are wrong, I'm just not sure things are THAT critical atm.
@avoca@gladtech.social Let me tell you a story about how I started out on Linux two decades ago:
I knew I was going to need support, and I had a whole IRC channel of nerds telling me (one of two girls regularly there) that I needed to switch to Linux. Okay, I said, if one of you will be my on call support, I'll do it.
The masochist who agreed to my terms was on Mandrake cooker for his personal machine, an unstable rolling release. He had me install that shit without me having any idea what that meant. It didn't occur to him that it would be hard for me and cause me to ask him a lot of problems because he was so used to putting out small fires he didn't notice he was doing just that constantly.
In the end, I was saved by the Mandrake Newbies list, who realized what'd happened, then helped me step down to the Mandrake stable release.
But telling n00bs they need to just do their homework and pick a "good beginner distro" is fucking victim blaming. They have no idea what's what, they have to depend on the kindness of others to help them understand because the search engines are full of fucking slop these days, and the forums are full of RTFM bros.
If you can't be nice to people asking questions, shut your fucking mouth. Do not blame the people asking the questions.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit
A lot of subject matter experts think it is beneath them to explain something simple to a new user, and maybe even get off on making fun of them. I speak from experience, as someone who was that asshole in my younger days. A key difference between a junior vs a senior dev is not so much skill or knowledge, as mentoring other devs, helping them learn.
Saying "RTFM" is often unhelpful, whereas an actual link to TFM and maybe a section or page number might be helpful. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.
@CedC@diaspodon.fr Do not peddle AI slop as the savior here. AI is not helpful, it is not useful. It is a prediction engine of what sounds like the right answer. Not what is the right answer, but what will sound plausibly like a correct answer.
That slop is part of the reason why the kindness in the Linux community is so important right now. AI is putting a lot of bad information out there. It is making up urls for people to download packages from that malicious folk then go and register domains for to offer up malware to these trusting people. It makes up names of packages and programs that do not exist, sending users into forums asking for total nonsense because the pedo-bot or the bullshit engine told them that would fix their problem. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
A lot of subject matter experts think it is beneath them to explain something simple to a new user, and maybe even get off on making fun of them. I speak from experience, as someone who was that asshole in my younger days. A key difference between a junior vs a senior dev is not so much skill or knowledge, as mentoring other devs, helping them learn.
Saying "RTFM" is often unhelpful, whereas an actual link to TFM and maybe a section or page number might be helpful.@Linux_in_a_Bit
Certainly teaching new users how to find the answers is worthwhile, but that isn't just saying RTFM. One can give an answer or pointer, AND help them learn how to find things on their own.
Being rude to new users doesn't impress anyone, other than other assholes who like to be rude to new users. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Certainly teaching new users how to find the answers is worthwhile, but that isn't just saying RTFM. One can give an answer or pointer, AND help them learn how to find things on their own.
Being rude to new users doesn't impress anyone, other than other assholes who like to be rude to new users.@Linux_in_a_Bit
Sometimes a new user has a question for which it is obvious that there is no simple answer that they're likely to understand. It is possible to politely explain why, and still provide pointers to resources that might, if sufficiently studied, actually answer their question.
Sometimes a new user wants to know how to do something that simply is not possible in any practical way. Again, it's possible to politely explain that. -
@Linux_in_a_Bit
Sometimes a new user has a question for which it is obvious that there is no simple answer that they're likely to understand. It is possible to politely explain why, and still provide pointers to resources that might, if sufficiently studied, actually answer their question.
Sometimes a new user wants to know how to do something that simply is not possible in any practical way. Again, it's possible to politely explain that.@Linux_in_a_Bit
None of us were born experts on Linux, or on any aspect of computing. We all had to learn it, though our individual paths varied. Perhaps some of us have forgotten how frustrating that was at times.
Saying RTFM in a smug and condescending way benefits no one. -
A anderslund@expressional.social shared this topic
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@avoca@gladtech.social Let me tell you a story about how I started out on Linux two decades ago:
I knew I was going to need support, and I had a whole IRC channel of nerds telling me (one of two girls regularly there) that I needed to switch to Linux. Okay, I said, if one of you will be my on call support, I'll do it.
The masochist who agreed to my terms was on Mandrake cooker for his personal machine, an unstable rolling release. He had me install that shit without me having any idea what that meant. It didn't occur to him that it would be hard for me and cause me to ask him a lot of problems because he was so used to putting out small fires he didn't notice he was doing just that constantly.
In the end, I was saved by the Mandrake Newbies list, who realized what'd happened, then helped me step down to the Mandrake stable release.
But telling n00bs they need to just do their homework and pick a "good beginner distro" is fucking victim blaming. They have no idea what's what, they have to depend on the kindness of others to help them understand because the search engines are full of fucking slop these days, and the forums are full of RTFM bros.
If you can't be nice to people asking questions, shut your fucking mouth. Do not blame the people asking the questions.
@Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchangeNice meet you too...
It was just an opinion mate...
And the folk who escaped the toxicity of X, Facebook, etc, etc to the, supposedly, more moderate Mastodon just love reading post's like your reply.
Oh, and, fuck you dickhead!
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@Linux_in_a_Bit my favorite in the irc days was when people said to rtfm and someone would paste the manual page back and it would say "TODO."@icedquinn @Linux_in_a_Bit I love how Debian has a few different manuals in different places for compiling a Linux kernel. With an up-to-date manual mentioning older kernel number than some others. 🫠
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Nice meet you too...
It was just an opinion mate...
And the folk who escaped the toxicity of X, Facebook, etc, etc to the, supposedly, more moderate Mastodon just love reading post's like your reply.
Oh, and, fuck you dickhead!
@avoca@gladtech.social My pronouns are in my bio, I am not your "mate", nor am I a dickhead. I am a woman who's been dealing with the toxicity of the Linux community for two decades and you're victim blaming here.
But nice to meet you too. -
@avoca@gladtech.social My pronouns are in my bio, I am not your "mate", nor am I a dickhead. I am a woman who's been dealing with the toxicity of the Linux community for two decades and you're victim blaming here.
But nice to meet you too. -
M madsenandersc@social.vivaldi.net shared this topic
