Debian permitting use of genAI:
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@feff Yes, and perhaps I should have been "on this" sooner.
I could do nothing, adopt a watching brief, and pretend that that makes me neutral on the topic.
And doing nothing is definitely superficially attractive, because the doing something meaningful is a huge amount of work.
I'm pretty sure that even our doorbell runs Linux.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil i am so tired
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@neil thanks Neil for your thoughts.
So Debian in the past has done some possibly questionable decisions like systemd.
I am aware of the environmental harm that AI is doing. On the other hand I can imagine a future where we all run a low resource local AI on better hardware and where there isn't so much money being pumped into these data centers anymore. However nobody knows the future and the sooner these firms go bankrupt, the sooner that there will be some alignment between environmental cost and financial cost.
@freshstart @neil if appealing to a future hypothetical version that isn't shit is your best argument, i have to wonder why you're pushing this line so hard
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@simondueckert @neil Just like how all software is on the blockchain now, and I'm buying my groceries with NFTs.
@PentUp @simondueckert @neil this guy posts advocating "open source" alternatives to claude code, so
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil if they think the climate change is too remote to affect them, not only this view is painfully, and obviously, biased in favor of wealthy northern countries...they're also in for some rude awakening
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
3) is enough for me. I have other objections, but this is a foundational one.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil you are using AI whether you like it or not.
Unless you want to run an OS and software that predates llms.
It's allowed for kernel stuff, you can bet Microsoft and probably apple are using it.
Haven't looked into what netbsd/openbsd are doing
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@neil you are using AI whether you like it or not.
Unless you want to run an OS and software that predates llms.
It's allowed for kernel stuff, you can bet Microsoft and probably apple are using it.
Haven't looked into what netbsd/openbsd are doing
@neil unless a distro is going to painstakingly audit every upstream package they'll likely be using AI even if they don't want to be
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@fishidwardrobe @neil "responsible AI" is "clean coal" for programming, it is at best jawdroppingly naive to take this as anything other than a green light for the worst practices by the worst people
@davidgerard @neil i disagree only with "at best". there is a _chance_ it will be used to block some or all slop code on grounds which a techboy who thinks they are "non–political" could not argue with.
on the other hand, this is broadly the same policy as adopted by the kernel. ***the kernel***.
if i want to be absolutist about this, time to switch to Haiku. i can't do that.
edit: i certainly would think well of anyone who can. i can't.
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@davidgerard @neil i disagree only with "at best". there is a _chance_ it will be used to block some or all slop code on grounds which a techboy who thinks they are "non–political" could not argue with.
on the other hand, this is broadly the same policy as adopted by the kernel. ***the kernel***.
if i want to be absolutist about this, time to switch to Haiku. i can't do that.
edit: i certainly would think well of anyone who can. i can't.
@fishidwardrobe @neil you're still pretending this could hypothetically be about something it clearly is not
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil not being very gifted when it comes to think before acting I moved half of my homelab to NetBSD while I think seriously what would be the next step I'll take.
I wish you luck and thanks for raising the subject. -
Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
3) is by everyone. A couple of years back, my employer asked everyone how they got to work, because they "needed" it for some ESG report, but AI is excluded from newer reports (and that is even legal) and if you mention it, you just get a lecture about how AI is a necessity for the future of the company. My unwillingness to use it outside of very narrow field already got me in hot water.
4) As another log time user, I decided to wait what happens to both Linux and Debian for a while.
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@simondueckert @neil Just like how all software is on the blockchain now, and I'm buying my groceries with NFTs.
@PentUp @simondueckert @neil I can't believe we resisted this at first. What were we thinking?!
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@tschenkel
Playing music on primitive instruments made from nature's scraps, to no-one but again nature itself
@neil@ozzelot @tschenkel @neil That would make me move back very fast.
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3) is enough for me. I have other objections, but this is a foundational one.
@europlus @neil @davidgerard It is disappointing. Apart from my main workstation I've got Debian on everything else (plus there's RPis too).
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@neil just use fedora
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@feff Yes, and perhaps I should have been "on this" sooner.
I could do nothing, adopt a watching brief, and pretend that that makes me neutral on the topic.
And doing nothing is definitely superficially attractive, because the doing something meaningful is a huge amount of work.
I'm pretty sure that even our doorbell runs Linux.
@neil I don't feel like doing nothing neccessarily means taking a neutral stance, but I get you.
I think my current plan is to just continue until it becomes impossible to use my Surface, although my choice pof doing so is not an endorsement (just a reflection of powerlessness and persuasiveness of the tech). I don't really have the time for distro hunting now, especially as an artist with specialist software.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil The question is if there are any distributions that committed not to use AI. Neither now, nor in the future.
And further more Debian is practically the standard on servers. -
@davidgerard @growse @neil Are you sure you want to equate witches with liars?
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> And that would be responsible use AI, right?
What criteria are you using for this assessment? That would seem to be important here, as to whether your conclusion is really just reinforcing your choice to use genAI because you would find it helpful to do so, or if it is a considered, objective stance.
@neil can any of us actually be truly objective about AI? We've all been tainted, unless we're in the AI never camp. And the latter cannot claim impartiality.
