Debian permitting use of genAI:
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3) is enough for me. I have other objections, but this is a foundational one.
@europlus @neil @davidgerard It is disappointing. Apart from my main workstation I've got Debian on everything else (plus there's RPis too).
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@neil just use fedora
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@feff Yes, and perhaps I should have been "on this" sooner.
I could do nothing, adopt a watching brief, and pretend that that makes me neutral on the topic.
And doing nothing is definitely superficially attractive, because the doing something meaningful is a huge amount of work.
I'm pretty sure that even our doorbell runs Linux.
@neil I don't feel like doing nothing neccessarily means taking a neutral stance, but I get you.
I think my current plan is to just continue until it becomes impossible to use my Surface, although my choice pof doing so is not an endorsement (just a reflection of powerlessness and persuasiveness of the tech). I don't really have the time for distro hunting now, especially as an artist with specialist software.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil The question is if there are any distributions that committed not to use AI. Neither now, nor in the future.
And further more Debian is practically the standard on servers. -
@davidgerard @growse @neil Are you sure you want to equate witches with liars?
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> And that would be responsible use AI, right?
What criteria are you using for this assessment? That would seem to be important here, as to whether your conclusion is really just reinforcing your choice to use genAI because you would find it helpful to do so, or if it is a considered, objective stance.
@neil can any of us actually be truly objective about AI? We've all been tainted, unless we're in the AI never camp. And the latter cannot claim impartiality.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil I wasn't particularly it must be said. Debian is primarily a librarian not a developer. Yes it has some development in the classic sense but it's basically an enormous library. Librarians tend to dislike excluding things, even bad things, or things from bad people.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil Debian was the OS I planned to switch to, in part because I didn't see this coming either.
I probably should have given just how much it's infiltrated everything else and my cynicism over it.I agree with what Elementary said: "you still have the problem of major underlying infrastructure including the Linux kernel itself. I think we have to take a harm reduction approach right now and do our best with what we have control over"
I don't have control over much, but I can change my OS.
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@neil Debian was the OS I planned to switch to, in part because I didn't see this coming either.
I probably should have given just how much it's infiltrated everything else and my cynicism over it.I agree with what Elementary said: "you still have the problem of major underlying infrastructure including the Linux kernel itself. I think we have to take a harm reduction approach right now and do our best with what we have control over"
I don't have control over much, but I can change my OS.
@babe @neil there was an abortive attempt to introduce a GR explicitly permitting LLM use a few months ago by obe of the former project leaders - this time the trigger was an explicitly anti LLM GR, but that initial attempt is basically what option B was on the ballot.
I started being worried when seeing some other names I recognise (including at least one other former DPL) seconding it (and seconding option E that won which is arguably worse)
But I was still caught by surprise, I figured worst case option B carries the day acknowledging all the negative impacts... I guess people who really want to use AI find being reminded of what they are doing uncomfortable
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil It's such an interesting question, and I see several angles. As a user who can't code, Claude Code has let me make things which are incredibly niche, just for myself - a huge positive. On the other hand, would I want AI code in my OS? I wouldn't trust it that far, yet.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil
I guess the point of the policy
was just that licence can't get in the way of them shipping CDs -
@neil It's such an interesting question, and I see several angles. As a user who can't code, Claude Code has let me make things which are incredibly niche, just for myself - a huge positive. On the other hand, would I want AI code in my OS? I wouldn't trust it that far, yet.
And we're just choosing to ignore the horrifying externalities, yes?
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@neil The question is if there are any distributions that committed not to use AI. Neither now, nor in the future.
And further more Debian is practically the standard on servers.@AlienJay @neil it's not Linux, but #NetBSD has a policy forbidding what they call "tainted code": https://www.netbsd.org/developers/commit-guidelines.html
#Gentoo has a similar position.
Both allow individual exceptions to be made after careful review of all concerns.
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@neil Debian was the OS I planned to switch to, in part because I didn't see this coming either.
I probably should have given just how much it's infiltrated everything else and my cynicism over it.I agree with what Elementary said: "you still have the problem of major underlying infrastructure including the Linux kernel itself. I think we have to take a harm reduction approach right now and do our best with what we have control over"
I don't have control over much, but I can change my OS.
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
For a reasoned, contrary point of view please see this thread:
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil I think "environmental harm" needs to come with some sort of disclaimer.
In the US, yeah, I have no idea how the way they're building datacenters there is legal.
Here in Sweden they run on 100% renewable energy and don't use up water.
I feel the whole environmental debate around LLMs has centered on what happens in the US, with very little actual data shown.
https://ourworldindata.org/how-much-energy-do-data-centers-and-artificial-intelligence-use
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@tschenkel A cabin in the woods, at this rate.
@neil we're going to need a lot of log cabins @tschenkel
I'm about to set up a new media server (I wish I'd bought the ram last year), and was already looking for a non-systemd distro; then Linus says slop is OK in the kernel, so I'm seriously wondering if I'm moving to a BSD. I've used a BSD-based NAS distro before, but there are a few things I don't know about right now, and it's also another way of thinking about the whole system setup & updates (I /like/ apt as a package system)
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@voidandcozy @neil I haven't just yet but I've given myself a shortlist to explore. AerynOS, redox, 9front, elementary and haiku
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Debian permitting use of genAI:
1) I am surprised. Perhaps I am naive, but I was of the impression that Debian would be one of the last distros that would want this.
2) I agree that the legal position varies around the world, and is subject to change. I don't know how easy it would be to remove genAI code if the risk profile changed.
3) I am surprised how little weight is given (by anyone, not just Debian devs) to the environmental harm of genAI. Perhaps that is justified as being too remote to be of direct concern.
4) As a long term Debian user impacted by this decision, I need to make a decision. Not doing anything is a decision in itself, even if a temporary decision. Moving from Debian would be many days of work, but that doesn't mean doing so is the wrong decision for me. Aargh.
@neil oh no, decision need here too...
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@neil Debian was the OS I planned to switch to, in part because I didn't see this coming either.
I probably should have given just how much it's infiltrated everything else and my cynicism over it.I agree with what Elementary said: "you still have the problem of major underlying infrastructure including the Linux kernel itself. I think we have to take a harm reduction approach right now and do our best with what we have control over"
I don't have control over much, but I can change my OS.
