OK...
-
OK... *sigh* - I guess I'm off the #Linux idea again
Look, guys, I know what y'all gonna say but please understand: WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE WIDE LINUX ADOPTION UNTIL YOU CAN USE IT WITHOUT COMMANDLINE & right now either you can't, or you can't find out how, which for a non-techie user is the same.
Not only does every tutorial & guide except base OS installation contain commandline; most fucking start with it.
Fix this, or stop telling people to switch.
-
OK... *sigh* - I guess I'm off the #Linux idea again
Look, guys, I know what y'all gonna say but please understand: WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE WIDE LINUX ADOPTION UNTIL YOU CAN USE IT WITHOUT COMMANDLINE & right now either you can't, or you can't find out how, which for a non-techie user is the same.
Not only does every tutorial & guide except base OS installation contain commandline; most fucking start with it.
Fix this, or stop telling people to switch.
@jwcph I've been running Ubuntu on my old-ish Surface Pro 7 tablet for about a week. And it's been uphill from the getgo.
First I need to register a certificate to allow for secure boot to work properly. That is definitely not trivial. And most guides just tell you to disable this security feature. Why would you disable security features!?
Then I had to install a custom kernel, built for Surface devices. Again, non-trivial. This step is especially weird considering "Linux can run on anything".
And now, I'm up and running. Or... Well who needs high quality audio anyways. And webcams. No. That shit won't work on my device, for whatever reason. On Windows I use Windows Hello, facial recognition, to login. And even if the Webcam worked, I had to jump through loops,and install all sorts of third party tools, to get this to work.
I'm very much keeping Windows on my desktop. Life is too f'ing short.
Thanks for sharing. Glad I'm not alone!
-
@jwcph I've been running Ubuntu on my old-ish Surface Pro 7 tablet for about a week. And it's been uphill from the getgo.
First I need to register a certificate to allow for secure boot to work properly. That is definitely not trivial. And most guides just tell you to disable this security feature. Why would you disable security features!?
Then I had to install a custom kernel, built for Surface devices. Again, non-trivial. This step is especially weird considering "Linux can run on anything".
And now, I'm up and running. Or... Well who needs high quality audio anyways. And webcams. No. That shit won't work on my device, for whatever reason. On Windows I use Windows Hello, facial recognition, to login. And even if the Webcam worked, I had to jump through loops,and install all sorts of third party tools, to get this to work.
I'm very much keeping Windows on my desktop. Life is too f'ing short.
Thanks for sharing. Glad I'm not alone!
@nickfrederiksen @jwcph Rather than just ranting, you should try to reach out for help
You shouldn't really need a custom kernel if the Surface has standard Intel/Broadcom-stuff - if not blame Microsoft and/or its subcontractors for not Open Sourcing its proprietary drivers. You're really putting the blame in the wrong directions here.
The Linux kernel does allow binary BLOBs to try to support more hardware, but lts up against hardware vendors that think that properly using a piece of hardware is a trade secret
-
@nickfrederiksen @jwcph Rather than just ranting, you should try to reach out for help
You shouldn't really need a custom kernel if the Surface has standard Intel/Broadcom-stuff - if not blame Microsoft and/or its subcontractors for not Open Sourcing its proprietary drivers. You're really putting the blame in the wrong directions here.
The Linux kernel does allow binary BLOBs to try to support more hardware, but lts up against hardware vendors that think that properly using a piece of hardware is a trade secret
@simonjust @jwcph I did just that. Was directed to this: https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
But that's not my point.
People are being told to "just install Linux".
I'm a tech guy, I know this stuff. But why would John and Jane Doe not choose Windows?
Almost all piece of consumer hardware in existence are supported at some level by basic drivers included with Windows. In Linux, people can't even get a printer to work without doing cli stuff. And for my webcam issue, it just won't work.
If people should move to Linux, the out of the box experience must be a lot better. The system should not require the user to go on the internet to look for help just to get basic stuff working. And how would that even work if the problem is a non-functioning wifi antenna on the only computer in the household?
And how do you trust the information you get? How do you know which command is the right one when you get 10 conflicting answers. And how can you tell that one of them won't harm your system?
-
@simonjust @jwcph I did just that. Was directed to this: https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
But that's not my point.
People are being told to "just install Linux".
I'm a tech guy, I know this stuff. But why would John and Jane Doe not choose Windows?
Almost all piece of consumer hardware in existence are supported at some level by basic drivers included with Windows. In Linux, people can't even get a printer to work without doing cli stuff. And for my webcam issue, it just won't work.
If people should move to Linux, the out of the box experience must be a lot better. The system should not require the user to go on the internet to look for help just to get basic stuff working. And how would that even work if the problem is a non-functioning wifi antenna on the only computer in the household?
And how do you trust the information you get? How do you know which command is the right one when you get 10 conflicting answers. And how can you tell that one of them won't harm your system?
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph
Why give credence to "just install Linux" assertions from unknown social media posters?
I've used #Linux for years. I don't tell anyone to "just install Linux". Linux doesn't run on everything. Neither does Windows or MacOS.
The internet is littered with outdated and/or sloppy Linux tutorials. No one cleans that muck up. It's common to imply the command line is the only way to do something because click-hunting sites can't be bothered with screenshots.
-
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph
Why give credence to "just install Linux" assertions from unknown social media posters?
I've used #Linux for years. I don't tell anyone to "just install Linux". Linux doesn't run on everything. Neither does Windows or MacOS.
The internet is littered with outdated and/or sloppy Linux tutorials. No one cleans that muck up. It's common to imply the command line is the only way to do something because click-hunting sites can't be bothered with screenshots.
@Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust @jwcph Why wouldn't I?
Whenever someone posts "I have problem with XYZ on Windows", the replies are promptly "just install Linux" and not "Have you tried opening the settings app, select this and toggle that?".
I'm a tech guy. I know this stuff. Been using Windows for 25 years, and linux for at least 5. My home servers run Linux. We have multiple applications, at work, that are built on and runs on Linux. So I know my way around it.
But for non-techies. You know, that VAST majority of people. Linux is just too advanced. And the help is more akkin to victim blaming than actual help.
Read through your post again, and tell me you are not blaming me for "doing it wrong".
-
@Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust @jwcph Why wouldn't I?
Whenever someone posts "I have problem with XYZ on Windows", the replies are promptly "just install Linux" and not "Have you tried opening the settings app, select this and toggle that?".
I'm a tech guy. I know this stuff. Been using Windows for 25 years, and linux for at least 5. My home servers run Linux. We have multiple applications, at work, that are built on and runs on Linux. So I know my way around it.
But for non-techies. You know, that VAST majority of people. Linux is just too advanced. And the help is more akkin to victim blaming than actual help.
Read through your post again, and tell me you are not blaming me for "doing it wrong".
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph
Installing and using a #Linux distribution that targets mainstream users without resort to the terminal is entirely practical.
It is not "victim blaming" to remind people that they should rely on guidance specific to their distribution and not the mythical thing called "Linux" and that the internet it littered with three decades worth of outdated and erroneous how-tos.
Social media is not a help forum or a community support tool.
-
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph
Installing and using a #Linux distribution that targets mainstream users without resort to the terminal is entirely practical.
It is not "victim blaming" to remind people that they should rely on guidance specific to their distribution and not the mythical thing called "Linux" and that the internet it littered with three decades worth of outdated and erroneous how-tos.
Social media is not a help forum or a community support tool.
@Corb_The_Lesser @nickfrederiksen @simonjust Yes, it fucking is victim blaming. You just threw out "distribution" like a casual user - remember who we're talking about here; this is up to & including my 80-year old aunt, who does just fine with Windows - would have any goddamn idea what you're talking about.
They don't, they never will & they shouldn't have to. I guarantee 9 out of 10 computer users haven't a clue what their OS version is.
Fuck, even I am not sure what "distribution" means!
-
@Corb_The_Lesser @nickfrederiksen @simonjust Yes, it fucking is victim blaming. You just threw out "distribution" like a casual user - remember who we're talking about here; this is up to & including my 80-year old aunt, who does just fine with Windows - would have any goddamn idea what you're talking about.
They don't, they never will & they shouldn't have to. I guarantee 9 out of 10 computer users haven't a clue what their OS version is.
Fuck, even I am not sure what "distribution" means!
@jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust > I guarantee 9 out of 10 computer users haven't a clue what their OS version is.
Hitting the nail on the head right here! I see a lot of posts like "I just replaced Windows with [insert linux distro] on my [relative]s computer. And they haven't noticed."
Tell me again how they are going to figure out why their newly purchased printer doesn't work on their computer, when all the guides are for Windows and they don't even know they're not running Windows? How can they figure out how to fix the problem?
-
@jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust > I guarantee 9 out of 10 computer users haven't a clue what their OS version is.
Hitting the nail on the head right here! I see a lot of posts like "I just replaced Windows with [insert linux distro] on my [relative]s computer. And they haven't noticed."
Tell me again how they are going to figure out why their newly purchased printer doesn't work on their computer, when all the guides are for Windows and they don't even know they're not running Windows? How can they figure out how to fix the problem?
@nickfrederiksen @Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust I want to emphasize - and I think maybe I'm speaking for Nick here, too - that this isn't about bashing Linux. WE WANT THIS TO WORK!! WE WOULD ABSOLUTELY LOVE FOR THIS TO WORK! We're frustrated because the potential here is beyond imagination, but it's being stifled by a community aggressively refusing to listen to anyone outside it.
-
@nickfrederiksen @Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust I want to emphasize - and I think maybe I'm speaking for Nick here, too - that this isn't about bashing Linux. WE WANT THIS TO WORK!! WE WOULD ABSOLUTELY LOVE FOR THIS TO WORK! We're frustrated because the potential here is beyond imagination, but it's being stifled by a community aggressively refusing to listen to anyone outside it.
@jwcph @nickfrederiksen @Corb_The_Lesser We're listening, but you and Nick basically started out by saying "Linux is shit, because we're having some minor problems". That's not talking, that's just throwing shit. You even emphasized it in CAPS
-
@jwcph @nickfrederiksen @Corb_The_Lesser We're listening, but you and Nick basically started out by saying "Linux is shit, because we're having some minor problems". That's not talking, that's just throwing shit. You even emphasized it in CAPS
@simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser I won't say unusable hardware is a "minor problem". Windows comes with basic drivers for almost anything. Some of those drivers hasn't been updated in 10+ years. But for some reason, Linux seems to require specialized per-device developed drivers.
Mouse, keyboards, printers, webcams etc. has a set of shared features that can be included into a mouse-driver, keyboard-driver, printer-driver, and webcam-driver.Sure the webcam driver doens't support shutter control. That is a per device thing, but it can be identified and used as a webcam. This is how Windows does it. But it seems like Linux does not.
-
@simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser I won't say unusable hardware is a "minor problem". Windows comes with basic drivers for almost anything. Some of those drivers hasn't been updated in 10+ years. But for some reason, Linux seems to require specialized per-device developed drivers.
Mouse, keyboards, printers, webcams etc. has a set of shared features that can be included into a mouse-driver, keyboard-driver, printer-driver, and webcam-driver.Sure the webcam driver doens't support shutter control. That is a per device thing, but it can be identified and used as a webcam. This is how Windows does it. But it seems like Linux does not.
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser
Minor comment that could fit into a response to almost any of the posts:
Try to separate hardware and software vendors and not conflate the terms and opportunities?
The reason Microsoft (a company) can include drivers in their operating system ("Windows", with multiple different versions/iterations, such a 7, 10 or most recently 11) for a lot of hardware, is because the hardware vendors provide drivers that work on that operating system.
-
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser
Minor comment that could fit into a response to almost any of the posts:
Try to separate hardware and software vendors and not conflate the terms and opportunities?
The reason Microsoft (a company) can include drivers in their operating system ("Windows", with multiple different versions/iterations, such a 7, 10 or most recently 11) for a lot of hardware, is because the hardware vendors provide drivers that work on that operating system.
@folfdk @nickfrederiksen @simonjust @Corb_The_Lesser Sure - but that just further underscores what a wrongheaded piece of advice it is to tell everybody to "Just install Linux".
-
@nickfrederiksen @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser
Minor comment that could fit into a response to almost any of the posts:
Try to separate hardware and software vendors and not conflate the terms and opportunities?
The reason Microsoft (a company) can include drivers in their operating system ("Windows", with multiple different versions/iterations, such a 7, 10 or most recently 11) for a lot of hardware, is because the hardware vendors provide drivers that work on that operating system.
@folfdk @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser I did. Windows comes with tons of basic drivers developed by Microsoft.
Those drivers makes your devices work, but if you want to enable all of their features, you must install the full vendor driver.
But basic functionality is there. -
@folfdk @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser I did. Windows comes with tons of basic drivers developed by Microsoft.
Those drivers makes your devices work, but if you want to enable all of their features, you must install the full vendor driver.
But basic functionality is there.@nickfrederiksen
OK, I guess I'm not understanding the full picture then.
Sorry for the noise. -
@nickfrederiksen
OK, I guess I'm not understanding the full picture then.
Sorry for the noise.@folfdk @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser No problem...
-
@folfdk @nickfrederiksen @simonjust @Corb_The_Lesser Sure - but that just further underscores what a wrongheaded piece of advice it is to tell everybody to "Just install Linux".
@jwcph
If you're only after the "just install Linux" advice by someone somewhere on the internet, then I fully agree
That's terrible advise.Better advice would be to advocate for better technology literacy in schools, demanding an end to the Microsoft monopoly in our (Danish) institutions and force hardware vendors out of the Microsoft monopoly.
It's almost impossible to buy a computer with a Linux distribution pre installed.
-
@folfdk @simonjust @jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser No problem...
@nickfrederiksen
Do I understand correctly that at Microsoft they have a lot of developers that develop generic drivers for hardware they know nothing about?
Or can they e.g. get help from the hardware vendors?I guess I'm basically akinh:
If there were enough Linux driver developers, would they be able to have the same basic support?Or is it also an issue with the technical way that the driver system etc on Linux is designed ?
-
@jwcph @Corb_The_Lesser @simonjust > I guarantee 9 out of 10 computer users haven't a clue what their OS version is.
Hitting the nail on the head right here! I see a lot of posts like "I just replaced Windows with [insert linux distro] on my [relative]s computer. And they haven't noticed."
Tell me again how they are going to figure out why their newly purchased printer doesn't work on their computer, when all the guides are for Windows and they don't even know they're not running Windows? How can they figure out how to fix the problem?
Since printer is mentioned.
On my Linux machine, I just plug in the printer I have and print.
My son was trying to use the printer, but needed to know that he should go to the vendor website, find the "correct" driver (what kind of baisc user knows about drivers in the first place?) install that driver, (including having to navigate some weird menus and EULAs with lots of text) and then print.
Didn't work when he just plugged it in.
