Mainstream adoption of ActivityPub vs. DIY indie hacking
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@hamishcampbell@mastodon.social recently made a statement that got me thinking about our place in the open social web, and the direction it’s going.
He says to @deadsuperhero@social.wedistribute.org and @evan@cosocial.ca re: SXSW
> #FediverseHouse this feels like an irrelevant echo chamber, I really miss the grassroots #DIY that built this space in the first place. This #maistreaming is too much noise vs signal… currently the grassroots #DIY space is a hollow shell
(two posts combined)
That immediately got me on edge as someone new to ActivityPub in 2024. Does this mean I’m “mainstream”, and somehow “bad”?
Mainstream adoption is good and a step in the right direction. I personally think ActivityPub isn’t ready for general mainstream consumption, but we as a group are rapidly closing the gap and I’d much rather continue building momentum instead of waiting for the opportune moment.
Here’s the hot take that I was going to originally write, but thought came off as too combative:
> It sounds like you feel like ActivityPub development only counts when you’re toiling away in obscurity.
As someone who’s hacking away on a platform that hasn’t been “mainstream” for over a decade (forum/BBS software), I bristle at the notion that what I do doesn’t count as grassroots or DIY. You don’t have to be the perpetual underdog to do good in the world.
I might be wrong, but it sounds like Hamish feels like big players are coming in and taking the ball away… that big players’ clout and presence takes away from the attention that smaller DIY projects receive.
Maybe… but if the fediverse is 100x larger with a big player, and they take 99% of the eyeballs, have they really taken anything away from you?
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@hamishcampbell@mastodon.social recently made a statement that got me thinking about our place in the open social web, and the direction it’s going.
He says to @deadsuperhero@social.wedistribute.org and @evan@cosocial.ca re: SXSW
> #FediverseHouse this feels like an irrelevant echo chamber, I really miss the grassroots #DIY that built this space in the first place. This #maistreaming is too much noise vs signal… currently the grassroots #DIY space is a hollow shell
(two posts combined)
That immediately got me on edge as someone new to ActivityPub in 2024. Does this mean I’m “mainstream”, and somehow “bad”?
Mainstream adoption is good and a step in the right direction. I personally think ActivityPub isn’t ready for general mainstream consumption, but we as a group are rapidly closing the gap and I’d much rather continue building momentum instead of waiting for the opportune moment.
Here’s the hot take that I was going to originally write, but thought came off as too combative:
> It sounds like you feel like ActivityPub development only counts when you’re toiling away in obscurity.
As someone who’s hacking away on a platform that hasn’t been “mainstream” for over a decade (forum/BBS software), I bristle at the notion that what I do doesn’t count as grassroots or DIY. You don’t have to be the perpetual underdog to do good in the world.
I might be wrong, but it sounds like Hamish feels like big players are coming in and taking the ball away… that big players’ clout and presence takes away from the attention that smaller DIY projects receive.
Maybe… but if the fediverse is 100x larger with a big player, and they take 99% of the eyeballs, have they really taken anything away from you?
I think there are a few things going on here.
Yes, every since the old Gnu Social days there have always been techie-elitists on the fediverse who say things like "it's good that it's hard to use because it keeps the 'normies' out" ... and alas, that tradition continues today on Mastodon and other platforms (and is often expressed in language that echoes anti-immigrant tropes or is somewhat racist). It's unfortunate but I don't know what we can do about it other than attempt to minimize their influence.
There's always been a tension between people who are in the fediverse because they want to get away from big tech companies ... and people who are in the fediverse because they think decentralization is cool, and so see it as a good thing that big tech companies are adopting the technology because hopefully over time it will provide a path for people to move off of the big corporate social networks. When Eugen called Threads' adoption of ActivityPub "a victory for our cause", it really drove home to a lot of people that his cause isn't theirs. This is part of why I talk about fediverses in the plural: there's a corporate fediverse as well as the "free fediverse" that's anti-surveillance capitalism (and others as well, like the 'freeze peach' fediverse). Of course, the various fediverses can potentially co-exist, but motivations and values are very different ... and the bigger corporations looking at the fediverse certainly aren't going out of their way to help or even acknowledge long-time fedi developers who aren't directly useful to them, so there's almost certainly some resentment on that front.
ever since 2017 (if not earlier), the fediverse has been very driven by trans, queer, and non-binary people. So if the fediverse is 100x larger with big players, and in the process it becomes 99% cis-dominant, then yes they have really taken soething away from trans people. What percentage of the speakers at Fediverse House were trans? Which speakers talked about the key role trans and non-binary people have played in Mastodon and ActivityPub's development? And since the biggest player is Meta, who's actively hostile to LGBTQ+ people, the dynamics are even worse -- especially since so many high-profile cis fediverse influencers only talk about the positive aspects of Threads without even acknowledging the concerns of trans and non-binary people. How many of the speakers at Fediverse House mentioned the anti-Meta FediPact and Vanta Black's perspective (shared by many of the signers) that "being okay with meta joining the fediverse is being okay with cosigning every goddamn trans person who chooses to remain on here to a future of constant harassment"?
Of course the second and third bullets aren't directly relevant to NodeBB. You're definitely grassroots and DIY. And getting new perspectives and energy from people like you -- or the 2022 wave -- is crucial to getting ActivityPub out of the rut it's been in for the last N years, and making the software more broadly usable. But they're certainly part of the overall dynamics.
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I think there are a few things going on here.
Yes, every since the old Gnu Social days there have always been techie-elitists on the fediverse who say things like "it's good that it's hard to use because it keeps the 'normies' out" ... and alas, that tradition continues today on Mastodon and other platforms (and is often expressed in language that echoes anti-immigrant tropes or is somewhat racist). It's unfortunate but I don't know what we can do about it other than attempt to minimize their influence.
There's always been a tension between people who are in the fediverse because they want to get away from big tech companies ... and people who are in the fediverse because they think decentralization is cool, and so see it as a good thing that big tech companies are adopting the technology because hopefully over time it will provide a path for people to move off of the big corporate social networks. When Eugen called Threads' adoption of ActivityPub "a victory for our cause", it really drove home to a lot of people that his cause isn't theirs. This is part of why I talk about fediverses in the plural: there's a corporate fediverse as well as the "free fediverse" that's anti-surveillance capitalism (and others as well, like the 'freeze peach' fediverse). Of course, the various fediverses can potentially co-exist, but motivations and values are very different ... and the bigger corporations looking at the fediverse certainly aren't going out of their way to help or even acknowledge long-time fedi developers who aren't directly useful to them, so there's almost certainly some resentment on that front.
ever since 2017 (if not earlier), the fediverse has been very driven by trans, queer, and non-binary people. So if the fediverse is 100x larger with big players, and in the process it becomes 99% cis-dominant, then yes they have really taken soething away from trans people. What percentage of the speakers at Fediverse House were trans? Which speakers talked about the key role trans and non-binary people have played in Mastodon and ActivityPub's development? And since the biggest player is Meta, who's actively hostile to LGBTQ+ people, the dynamics are even worse -- especially since so many high-profile cis fediverse influencers only talk about the positive aspects of Threads without even acknowledging the concerns of trans and non-binary people. How many of the speakers at Fediverse House mentioned the anti-Meta FediPact and Vanta Black's perspective (shared by many of the signers) that "being okay with meta joining the fediverse is being okay with cosigning every goddamn trans person who chooses to remain on here to a future of constant harassment"?
Of course the second and third bullets aren't directly relevant to NodeBB. You're definitely grassroots and DIY. And getting new perspectives and energy from people like you -- or the 2022 wave -- is crucial to getting ActivityPub out of the rut it's been in for the last N years, and making the software more broadly usable. But they're certainly part of the overall dynamics.
@jdp23 I think the best thing about the fediverse is that YOU (the user) can choose which version of the fedi you want to live in. If you don’t want Meta, then choose an instance that blocks them out (or self-host). If you don’t want people searching your content, you can shut that off in your settings. If you don’t want “normies” here, then you can close the doors via your instance. What annoys me is people who want to make *their* version of the fedi the default.
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@jdp23 I think the best thing about the fediverse is that YOU (the user) can choose which version of the fedi you want to live in. If you don’t want Meta, then choose an instance that blocks them out (or self-host). If you don’t want people searching your content, you can shut that off in your settings. If you don’t want “normies” here, then you can close the doors via your instance. What annoys me is people who want to make *their* version of the fedi the default.
I think this post sums up my constructive thinking on these threads https://hamishcampbell.com/why-the-fediverse-needs-a-connection-between-mainstreaming-and-grassroots/
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I think this post sums up my constructive thinking on these threads https://hamishcampbell.com/why-the-fediverse-needs-a-connection-between-mainstreaming-and-grassroots/
Did we find any paths out of this mess?
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Did we find any paths out of this mess?
@hamishcampbell @ricmac @evanprodromou If I remember correctly, you shared a blog post with your ideas for what you want to do on the matter? I hope it works out. Good luck!
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@hamishcampbell @ricmac @evanprodromou If I remember correctly, you shared a blog post with your ideas for what you want to do on the matter? I hope it works out. Good luck!
You are a bright guy, so you can hopefully see the issue with the reply:
https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=individualism
If we can't talk about groups we can't talk, not understanding this is lying because It's what we do all the time, as "common sense".
With this in mind, the thread started with @julian taking a group thought and answering as an individual emotion, and carried on in this #blocking way. This is the normal mess, we do need to put more focus into composting
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A activitypub@community.nodebb.org shared this topic
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You are a bright guy, so you can hopefully see the issue with the reply:
https://hamishcampbell.com/?s=individualism
If we can't talk about groups we can't talk, not understanding this is lying because It's what we do all the time, as "common sense".
With this in mind, the thread started with @julian taking a group thought and answering as an individual emotion, and carried on in this #blocking way. This is the normal mess, we do need to put more focus into composting
@hamishcampbell @ricmac @evanprodromou @julian Thanks for your kind words. I won't interrupt your discussion with Julian anymore. I hope you reach some accord!
