It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!).
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@plexus @flooper "Worse is better" is not a dogma, it is a thesis and an interpretation of history, which can be read in different ways. It was originally frame in the context of Unix and how it was worse than other systems. These other systems were, e.g. Multics, VAX/VMS, VM/370 or Genera, and much of the resent of the applauding audience came from habit, arrogance and hubris.
In that context, it can also be argued that Unix was better than these other systems, strictly because of its 1/
Yes, »worse is better« morphed from /description/ to /prescription/. (There is a nice talk by Romeu Moura about this fallacy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Pq4-e0QyI)
In short: people erroneously move from »it's like this« to »it should be like this« or »it's inevitable like this«, and then enshrine it as a given fact, assumption or axiom instead of asking what can be done about it.
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@grishka Right on, and then consider that with the traditional mode of writing software, the cost of creating something that is good is very high.
I'd argue that with faster (machine assisted) software creation, it is easier to meet the need of users because the cost of change is drastically reduced. I'm experiencing that with those system that I'm currently writing that way.
The whole argument that software written by humans is better does not bear any merit for me.
@grishka It is basically the same argument that old-school programmers make since decades when a new tool comes to the market.
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@grishka Right on, and then consider that with the traditional mode of writing software, the cost of creating something that is good is very high.
I'd argue that with faster (machine assisted) software creation, it is easier to meet the need of users because the cost of change is drastically reduced. I'm experiencing that with those system that I'm currently writing that way.
The whole argument that software written by humans is better does not bear any merit for me.
"the cost of change is drastically reduced"
Only because the true costs are either being externalised or hidden by vast amounts of circular investments.
When the bubble pops and the bill comes due, we'll see how much the costs were actually reduced.
Oh. No, we won't. Because the too-big-to-fail companies will get bailed out by the tax payers. Again.
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It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!). I've seen a few blog posts now that talk about how some people just "love the craft", "delight in making something just right, like knitting", etc, as opposed to people who just "want to make it work". As if that explains the divide.
How about this, some people resent the notion of being a babysitter to a stochastic token machine, hastening their own cognitive decline. Some people resent paying rent to a handful of US companies, all coming directly out of the TESCREAL human extinction cult, to be able to write software. Some people resent the "worse is better" steady decline of software quality over the past two decades, now supercharged. Some people resent that the hegemonic computing ecosystem is entirely shaped by the logic of venture capital. Some people hate that the digital commons is walled off and sold back to us. Oh and I guess some people also don't like the thought of making coding several orders of magnitude more energy intensive during a climate emergency.
But sure, no, it's really because we mourn the loss of our hobby.
@plexus we've all become luddites, in typical silicon valley fashion, they did it to themselves even.
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@grishka Right on, and then consider that with the traditional mode of writing software, the cost of creating something that is good is very high.
I'd argue that with faster (machine assisted) software creation, it is easier to meet the need of users because the cost of change is drastically reduced. I'm experiencing that with those system that I'm currently writing that way.
The whole argument that software written by humans is better does not bear any merit for me.
@hanshuebner What does "software is better" even mean in this context?
I wonder if this entire "LLM generated code is good enough and it's creation is much more efficient" argument will stand the test of time when a lot of code is generated on the same product / project by many people. We do not know the answer to this yet.
@grishka -
@hanshuebner What does "software is better" even mean in this context?
I wonder if this entire "LLM generated code is good enough and it's creation is much more efficient" argument will stand the test of time when a lot of code is generated on the same product / project by many people. We do not know the answer to this yet.
@grishkaHolger, as far as I understand the capabilities of LLMs, they only really produce a passable result when given a blank slate and the task at hand is some variation of gluing some libraries and/or REST APIs together.
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It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!). I've seen a few blog posts now that talk about how some people just "love the craft", "delight in making something just right, like knitting", etc, as opposed to people who just "want to make it work". As if that explains the divide.
How about this, some people resent the notion of being a babysitter to a stochastic token machine, hastening their own cognitive decline. Some people resent paying rent to a handful of US companies, all coming directly out of the TESCREAL human extinction cult, to be able to write software. Some people resent the "worse is better" steady decline of software quality over the past two decades, now supercharged. Some people resent that the hegemonic computing ecosystem is entirely shaped by the logic of venture capital. Some people hate that the digital commons is walled off and sold back to us. Oh and I guess some people also don't like the thought of making coding several orders of magnitude more energy intensive during a climate emergency.
But sure, no, it's really because we mourn the loss of our hobby.
@plexus It's honestly hard to express how I see it. As someone that has always been interested in tech I'm honestly curious about anything new but at the same time I don't like all the hidden natural and human cost behind it. I also hate being forced to use it because "we need to be an AI first company" and what I see here is the same process again: we hook you up, we lock you in and then we enshittify everything.
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It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!). I've seen a few blog posts now that talk about how some people just "love the craft", "delight in making something just right, like knitting", etc, as opposed to people who just "want to make it work". As if that explains the divide.
How about this, some people resent the notion of being a babysitter to a stochastic token machine, hastening their own cognitive decline. Some people resent paying rent to a handful of US companies, all coming directly out of the TESCREAL human extinction cult, to be able to write software. Some people resent the "worse is better" steady decline of software quality over the past two decades, now supercharged. Some people resent that the hegemonic computing ecosystem is entirely shaped by the logic of venture capital. Some people hate that the digital commons is walled off and sold back to us. Oh and I guess some people also don't like the thought of making coding several orders of magnitude more energy intensive during a climate emergency.
But sure, no, it's really because we mourn the loss of our hobby.
@plexus thanks for this framing, it is one that I can fully recognize myself in. I am uninterested in any so-called "AI"-assisted coding and I am not a very good coder, I came to coding via science, it is not a craft I have mastered or perfected in any way. but I do care about results making sense, code being maintanable, the socio-political economy of technology, labor, ecology, decolonial struggles and tending to my cognitive capacities...
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It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!). I've seen a few blog posts now that talk about how some people just "love the craft", "delight in making something just right, like knitting", etc, as opposed to people who just "want to make it work". As if that explains the divide.
How about this, some people resent the notion of being a babysitter to a stochastic token machine, hastening their own cognitive decline. Some people resent paying rent to a handful of US companies, all coming directly out of the TESCREAL human extinction cult, to be able to write software. Some people resent the "worse is better" steady decline of software quality over the past two decades, now supercharged. Some people resent that the hegemonic computing ecosystem is entirely shaped by the logic of venture capital. Some people hate that the digital commons is walled off and sold back to us. Oh and I guess some people also don't like the thought of making coding several orders of magnitude more energy intensive during a climate emergency.
But sure, no, it's really because we mourn the loss of our hobby.
@plexus "This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it...."
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@plexus our hobby has always known culture wars
https://www.bennadel.com/blog/1682-coldfusion-vs-xyz-it-finally-got-physical.htmI think alot of colleagues don't have the luxury to choose, but have an employer that orders them to use AI.
When the draft of our strategy document was submitted i responded with some caution not to double down on the hype. I am fortunate that i can have a voice in this matter at my job.@moonshinebrigade @plexus I'm one oh that guys. At the beginning of the year, my manager told me "why didn't you use AI this month?".
I had to answer "dude, I was on vacation until yesterday"
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@plexus It's honestly hard to express how I see it. As someone that has always been interested in tech I'm honestly curious about anything new but at the same time I don't like all the hidden natural and human cost behind it. I also hate being forced to use it because "we need to be an AI first company" and what I see here is the same process again: we hook you up, we lock you in and then we enshittify everything.
@plexus adding to this what about losing the craft? If you just review the produced code and never practice the craft anymore, you will lose it and then what?
There are tons of other things going on in my mind and at the top my 12 yrs old kiddo is getting hooked into programming without using LLMs. What should I say to him? Don't worry too much, do a shitty job you don't like because a bunch of VC sharks decided that's better to invest in machines than humans? -
@plexus adding to this what about losing the craft? If you just review the produced code and never practice the craft anymore, you will lose it and then what?
There are tons of other things going on in my mind and at the top my 12 yrs old kiddo is getting hooked into programming without using LLMs. What should I say to him? Don't worry too much, do a shitty job you don't like because a bunch of VC sharks decided that's better to invest in machines than humans?@plexus and my last point is that "us, developers" are an anomaly in the job market, well paid workers with many benefits doing the job they love. An anomaly that VCs want to be fixed...
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- LLMs generate straw-fire software. It seems to burn at first, but it's not even hot enough to start a real fire.- This seems cheap in a very short-term view, and it might satisfy short-term “wants”, but it's not sustainable.
- We need to start fixing somewhere. Two holes in a bucket are not a dilemma, but two tasks.
@Ardubal @hanshuebner @plexus "Move fast and break things" has been one of the worst motivators of our time.
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@hanshuebner @plexus I don't know what your point is?
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It's clear that AI assisted coding is dividing developers (welcome to the culture wars!). I've seen a few blog posts now that talk about how some people just "love the craft", "delight in making something just right, like knitting", etc, as opposed to people who just "want to make it work". As if that explains the divide.
How about this, some people resent the notion of being a babysitter to a stochastic token machine, hastening their own cognitive decline. Some people resent paying rent to a handful of US companies, all coming directly out of the TESCREAL human extinction cult, to be able to write software. Some people resent the "worse is better" steady decline of software quality over the past two decades, now supercharged. Some people resent that the hegemonic computing ecosystem is entirely shaped by the logic of venture capital. Some people hate that the digital commons is walled off and sold back to us. Oh and I guess some people also don't like the thought of making coding several orders of magnitude more energy intensive during a climate emergency.
But sure, no, it's really because we mourn the loss of our hobby.
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Holger, as far as I understand the capabilities of LLMs, they only really produce a passable result when given a blank slate and the task at hand is some variation of gluing some libraries and/or REST APIs together.
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@hanshuebner @plexus I don't know what your point is?
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@plexus In the end, software engineering is about creating solutions to problems other people have. The solutions are not a byproduct, but the primary purpose. To the majority of users, the inner workings and the creation process of software is opaque. The qualities that software exposes on the outside are largely independent of its inner workings.
This means that for most people in the software industry, adapting to the new tooling that makes the creation process more efficient is 1/
@hanshuebner @plexus Did you ever read the toot you replied to before arguing with standard AI propaganda points?
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@hanshuebner @plexus Did you ever read the toot you replied to before arguing with standard AI propaganda points?
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@hanshuebner Thanks but I guess I will see the effects of using LLMs over a longer period of time on a bigger codebase at work anyway. I'm actually more concerned about the effects on the developers, which brings us back to Arne's original toot.
@grishka @plexus
