things this post does:1.
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@iinavpov you're wildly missing the point and it's hard for me to tell if you're doing that deliberately.
a policy proposal was created, quickly locked for developers only, later after much uproar archived.
the position of kdeforpeople.con was dismissed and not even taken into consideration. there was no attempt to reply to its points.
Nate apologised for causing unnecessary drama and nothing else.
KDE shared the post with that conclusion.do you see an issue with that?
@Yuvalne
I would agree with your opinion of events if I agreed with you that this was what happened.As it is, because we don't agree on what happened, it's not relevant.
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RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
lol someone reported this post and forwarded it along, for "brigading", and to show this is brigading they cited... the exact Nate post i'm replying to.
idk what's more funny:
1. to report the admin of an almost single-user instance then forward the report to the same instance
2. to bring as evidence the blogpost the post you're reporting is in reply to
3. to quote Nate as evidence for brigading, when Nate himself edited the post to say he was wrong to call it brigading. -
@iinavpov i know you disagreed with the framing of some of the questions i asked, so let me repeat just the ones you haven't challenged.
- was Nate justified in his characterisation of the Nazi and of the actions done to said Nazi?
- was Nate right to say to characterise kdeforpeople.com as "people mostly outside of KDE"?
- was the KDE project right in not apologising to the various people banned from expressing their worries about Nazis in the community?@Yuvalne
I don't know what you mean by Nate's characterisation of the Nazi, because you haven't said what you mean.I presumptively agree with Nate on the kde for the people.
The third point requires way more characters than I have. I don't agree with your framing, but I know how rules are used by bullies to bully, and I know how difficult moderation is. And I don't feel I'm legitimate to pass judgement.
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@Yuvalne it seems to be a pattern that Open Source projects "test the water" with this stuff, and then when they don't like the response the responsible parties just go "Fuck the water and everyone in it, this isn't for their benefit anyway"
@davey_cakes @Yuvalne the most enraging part is that the KDE devs insist that this poster is 'very anti-ai', yet his own words, and his proposed policy, are unquestionably full of AI boosterism.
If that's what the devteam consider 'anti-ai' then we're all fucked.
So much cishet white male privilege.
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lol someone reported this post and forwarded it along, for "brigading", and to show this is brigading they cited... the exact Nate post i'm replying to.
idk what's more funny:
1. to report the admin of an almost single-user instance then forward the report to the same instance
2. to bring as evidence the blogpost the post you're reporting is in reply to
3. to quote Nate as evidence for brigading, when Nate himself edited the post to say he was wrong to call it brigading.i wonder if the reporter just searched for kdeforpeople.com on their instance and reported every post that mentioned it. i mean they don't even take signatures anymore!
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@iinavpov you yourself described Nate's account as "incomplete and biased", yet when je describes the creator of kdeforpeople.com as "someone outside KDE" and dismisses virtually all of the signatures in the same vain you trust that?
@Yuvalne
We are all biased and have incomplete views of truth.I have no reason to believe someone well connected to the active contributor community would not know and recognise people he knew.
If he's lying about that, there *will* be a (well deserved) shit storm.
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@iinavpov how do you measure "being outside KDE"? the measure Nate takes is "do the contributors know the person", which is heavily biased towards recurring code contributors and people who hold official positions in the project.
i'm a KDE tester, i've interacted with Nate several times, but he doesn't recognise me, which makes sense because he interacts with many people regularly. that's not the issue, it's that per that definition i'm "outside KDE" and my opinions aren't consideration worthy.@Yuvalne
I think Nate not recognising you as a tester and contributor is an issue. A big one. -
You don't need to fork KDE. You can also switch to another DE.
This is how Open Source works!
ad “silent majority” vibes)
I really like people that thinks that their opinion is the only valid opinion.
@mkyral
> You don't need to fork KDE. You can also switch to another DE.Do I need to spell out that is what happens when you don't care about your users?
> I really like people that thinks that their opinion is the only valid opinion.
In the context about asking user about their opinions via surveys this sounds to me either as an insult or telling on yourself.
If it's the latter then I ask you for some retrospection.
If it's the earlier then I ask you not to answer.
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@Yuvalne
We are all biased and have incomplete views of truth.I have no reason to believe someone well connected to the active contributor community would not know and recognise people he knew.
If he's lying about that, there *will* be a (well deserved) shit storm.
@iinavpov am i "outside KDE", Nemo?
i've already explained my relationship with KDE a bunch in this thread. i also explained why Nate is very unlikely to recognise me, and why just that fact alone is not a bad thing.
am i "outside KDE"? -
@Yuvalne
I think Nate not recognising you as a tester and contributor is an issue. A big one.@iinavpov there's a lot of testers out there. i'm also not a code contributor because i don't code, i'm a contributor in the sense of putting my time and money on this project.
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RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
@Yuvalne it literally wasn't a pro-AI presentation, it was in fact, quite explicitly, anti-Omarchy. People have just been spreading lies about it for some reason.
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@iinavpov am i "outside KDE", Nemo?
i've already explained my relationship with KDE a bunch in this thread. i also explained why Nate is very unlikely to recognise me, and why just that fact alone is not a bad thing.
am i "outside KDE"?@Yuvalne
By my definition, and I think Nate's, you are, in fact, KDE.I genuinely think that recognition *is* a central problem here.
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@iinavpov there's a lot of testers out there. i'm also not a code contributor because i don't code, i'm a contributor in the sense of putting my time and money on this project.
@iinavpov but leaving whether we think it's justified or not to the side, we've already established that someone, say, regularly checking their KDE bugzilla account and giving money to KDE and advocating for KDE is not enough to be recognised by contributors.
given that, i'll repeat the question i asked here: https://433.world/@Yuvalne/117325863793076836
is it fair to call such people (such as myself) "outside KDE"?
because if not, calling kdeforpeople that is a very bad idea. -
@iinavpov there's a lot of testers out there. i'm also not a code contributor because i don't code, i'm a contributor in the sense of putting my time and money on this project.
@Yuvalne
Not "in the sense". You are a contributor, full stop. -
RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
@Yuvalne that phrase "people mostly outside of KDE" is literally just a techwashed version of the fascist "paid protesters bused in from out of state" rhetoric
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@iinavpov but leaving whether we think it's justified or not to the side, we've already established that someone, say, regularly checking their KDE bugzilla account and giving money to KDE and advocating for KDE is not enough to be recognised by contributors.
given that, i'll repeat the question i asked here: https://433.world/@Yuvalne/117325863793076836
is it fair to call such people (such as myself) "outside KDE"?
because if not, calling kdeforpeople that is a very bad idea.@Yuvalne
I think these are separate questions.There is a lot of bad faith out there, and there are people who will, out of nowhere, start things to cause a ruckus.
I can understand dismissal. I think that if "larger" voices join in, it will not be dismissed any more. I think this is a matter of that project (for the people) staying organised over time.
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@Yuvalne it literally wasn't a pro-AI presentation, it was in fact, quite explicitly, anti-Omarchy. People have just been spreading lies about it for some reason.
@bachimusprime
i already answered that:
https://433.world/@Yuvalne/117325539990010359
and answered a reply to said answer: https://433.world/@Yuvalne/117325586365619779
and replied myself to that answer because focusing on the presentation misses the point: https://433.world/@Yuvalne/117325601946817022 -
@Yuvalne that phrase "people mostly outside of KDE" is literally just a techwashed version of the fascist "paid protesters bused in from out of state" rhetoric
@joepie91 fun fact: the only instances i'm aware of of there actually being paid protestors from outside the state were in support of right-wing causes, most famously the storm of the Florida electoral comission in 2000 which was presented as an authentic protest but was literally 100% position holders in the Republican party.
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@mkyral
> You don't need to fork KDE. You can also switch to another DE.Do I need to spell out that is what happens when you don't care about your users?
> I really like people that thinks that their opinion is the only valid opinion.
In the context about asking user about their opinions via surveys this sounds to me either as an insult or telling on yourself.
If it's the latter then I ask you for some retrospection.
If it's the earlier then I ask you not to answer.
@dzwiedziu @Yuvalne Sorry, English is not my primary language and I feel I don't understood your arguments properly.
But I still think that developers are primary users, so their opinion matters the most.
That's all I want say. Have a nice day.
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@joepie91 fun fact: the only instances i'm aware of of there actually being paid protestors from outside the state were in support of right-wing causes, most famously the storm of the Florida electoral comission in 2000 which was presented as an authentic protest but was literally 100% position holders in the Republican party.
