Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms ok cool, I will definitely check it out again, thank you
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms damn, that's terrible news, thanks for the heads up. FreeDOS? CP/M? Dark times
FreeDOS is on that list.
The listed non-AI alternative, ironically enough, is Microsoft MS-DOS.
@nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms just wanted to add, Redox OS looks really cool, I'll have to check it out. Doesn't look like a convenient drop in replacement for a Debian daily driver necessarily but definitely interesting
@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Yeah, we are really in the "nascent OS" space nowadays with non-AI based projects -- kinda like how open source was to begin with.
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@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Yeah, we are really in the "nascent OS" space nowadays with non-AI based projects -- kinda like how open source was to begin with.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms it's not very practical, but at least exploring fresh options can be enjoyable. I wish I was doing this again because of extra free time rather than extra pressure to find something uncontaminated, but it is what it is I guess
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms it's not very practical, but at least exploring fresh options can be enjoyable. I wish I was doing this again because of extra free time rather than extra pressure to find something uncontaminated, but it is what it is I guess
@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Was telling a friend recently that the advent of AI makes me feel like I am just over tech.
It used to be that you didn't feel like you owned your tools, and I guess we're back to that again.
Seems like it's just more fun to touch grass instead.
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@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Was telling a friend recently that the advent of AI makes me feel like I am just over tech.
It used to be that you didn't feel like you owned your tools, and I guess we're back to that again.
Seems like it's just more fun to touch grass instead.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms I know what you mean. I swing between optimism and pessimism. The things I do for money, I would mostly only do if someone paid me. But I realize that was always true. I meet people where they are and try to understand and solve their problems, and we don't always see eye to eye on tech. I warn them, and I do what they pay me to.
At the start of my career I was excited about Linux, C, Tcl and Perl but wrote VB6 for Windows for pay. Now I write Java and Python and feel the AI shadows spreading even into my corner, but I can still enjoy a Z80 or a subversive free time project idea. It sucks that they came for the stable tools I'd decided to trust, but I abandoned "sensible" tools for new, unconventional ones before. I can do it again.
Or just throw a ball or ride a bicycle. I'm tired, but I don't want to despair
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His arguments are clear, but they disagree with reality. He argues from technical merit that doesn't exist.
Hence the suspicion of ulterior motives.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft depends on the definition and how they use it.
If Kernel devs find it useful to discover security issues and fix them before a bad actor exploits them, then you can't discount the benefit it provides. Personally I'd put in the same class of tools a fuzzing etc, but far more expensive and advanced.
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft depends on the definition and how they use it.
If Kernel devs find it useful to discover security issues and fix them before a bad actor exploits them, then you can't discount the benefit it provides. Personally I'd put in the same class of tools a fuzzing etc, but far more expensive and advanced.
My worry is that their use of AI is going to *create* security issues for bad actors to exploit.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one @radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H@mastodon.social @geospacedman @marcusxms #NetBSD doesn't allow LLM AI tainted code
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft refugees are welcome to #NetBSD https://mastodon.sdf.org/@netbsd/112446618914747900
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft NetBSD has clear LLM policy. No LLM AI tainted code allowed https://mastodon.sdf.org/@netbsd/112446618914747900
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“In the kernel community we do open source because it results in better technology, not because of religious reasons. And so we make decisions primarily based on technical merit.”
Then why are they using this tool? The code it's generated for me so far has been unusable rubbish.
Which makes me very worried that Linux will become buggy, insecure, and unusable soon.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft Because all submitted PRs are still reviewed by humans.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one I suggest to read info from this repo with a slight skepticism.
I following and watching this repo for a long time and the more time passes — the more it reminds me a transcript of the congress of the Central Committee of the CPSU half-mixed with radicalism. Not just a well-structured list like https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html
So, it wasn't surprise when some OSes (
at least) were included in this list just because they required core approval for LLM commits (reading between the lines: core will not give this approval and as we see from the recently updated guidelines — finally, such commits were clearly prohibited).@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft Because all submitted PRs are still reviewed by humans.
Are they, though, in any meaningful sense? I've heard many complaints that people who use LLMs lose their programming skills, which presumably makes them unqualified to review PRs.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
> Or just walk away
Sounds like a reference to a Cory Doctorow's "Walkaway" book
BTW strongly recommend to read it!
> In a world of non-work, ruined by human-created climate change and pollution, and where people are under surveillance and ruled over by a mega-rich elite, Hubert, Etc., his friend Seth, and Natalie, decide that they have nothing to lose by turning their backs and walking away from the everyday world of "default reality" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkaway_(Doctorow_novel))
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft I don't think that happens. Maybe if they're still amateurs cause they cannot hone their skills but most kernel devs are professionals and has been in the industry for decades already. Like you don't just lose your ability to drive just because you haven't driven for years for example.
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft I don't think that happens. Maybe if they're still amateurs cause they cannot hone their skills but most kernel devs are professionals and has been in the industry for decades already. Like you don't just lose your ability to drive just because you haven't driven for years for example.
@Unn0wn
You don't lose your ability, but you're not as good.There are reasons why professionnal rally driver re-train to drive on ice/... before _each_ season.
Do mainly pr review instead of design/code/debug, and your proficiency will slowly erode.
And the best: you could not even detect it without any, objective, external metrics.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft ahahahahahahahaha may this humble a lot of insufferable linux bros...
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@futureisfoss @nixCraft You can fork anything, and the fork continues to work. The trouble is if you want to keep parity with all the future device drivers added to Linux, all the new features added, and all the bug and security fixes. That is an enormous effort, requiring thousands of people. Increasingly the burden of that work has shifted from enthusiasts and academics to teams of full-time software engineers working at their day jobs. Linux is big business now, and has been for some time.
I think you are right here and this is why I was wondering about the practicality of it. I know there exists other variants of the Linux kernel like Zen but I imagine these are small patches, removing all AI code from the kernel and then having to maintain it would be such an enormous effort. And then you also have the problem of detecting AI code among all the contributions, that can't be easy either.
