Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
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His arguments are clear, but they disagree with reality. He argues from technical merit that doesn't exist.
Hence the suspicion of ulterior motives.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft depends on the definition and how they use it.
If Kernel devs find it useful to discover security issues and fix them before a bad actor exploits them, then you can't discount the benefit it provides. Personally I'd put in the same class of tools a fuzzing etc, but far more expensive and advanced.
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft depends on the definition and how they use it.
If Kernel devs find it useful to discover security issues and fix them before a bad actor exploits them, then you can't discount the benefit it provides. Personally I'd put in the same class of tools a fuzzing etc, but far more expensive and advanced.
My worry is that their use of AI is going to *create* security issues for bad actors to exploit.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one @radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H@mastodon.social @geospacedman @marcusxms #NetBSD doesn't allow LLM AI tainted code
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft refugees are welcome to #NetBSD https://mastodon.sdf.org/@netbsd/112446618914747900
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft NetBSD has clear LLM policy. No LLM AI tainted code allowed https://mastodon.sdf.org/@netbsd/112446618914747900
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“In the kernel community we do open source because it results in better technology, not because of religious reasons. And so we make decisions primarily based on technical merit.”
Then why are they using this tool? The code it's generated for me so far has been unusable rubbish.
Which makes me very worried that Linux will become buggy, insecure, and unusable soon.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft Because all submitted PRs are still reviewed by humans.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one I suggest to read info from this repo with a slight skepticism.
I following and watching this repo for a long time and the more time passes — the more it reminds me a transcript of the congress of the Central Committee of the CPSU half-mixed with radicalism. Not just a well-structured list like https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html
So, it wasn't surprise when some OSes (
at least) were included in this list just because they required core approval for LLM commits (reading between the lines: core will not give this approval and as we see from the recently updated guidelines — finally, such commits were clearly prohibited).@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft Because all submitted PRs are still reviewed by humans.
Are they, though, in any meaningful sense? I've heard many complaints that people who use LLMs lose their programming skills, which presumably makes them unqualified to review PRs.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
> Or just walk away
Sounds like a reference to a Cory Doctorow's "Walkaway" book
BTW strongly recommend to read it!
> In a world of non-work, ruined by human-created climate change and pollution, and where people are under surveillance and ruled over by a mega-rich elite, Hubert, Etc., his friend Seth, and Natalie, decide that they have nothing to lose by turning their backs and walking away from the everyday world of "default reality" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkaway_(Doctorow_novel))
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft I don't think that happens. Maybe if they're still amateurs cause they cannot hone their skills but most kernel devs are professionals and has been in the industry for decades already. Like you don't just lose your ability to drive just because you haven't driven for years for example.
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft I don't think that happens. Maybe if they're still amateurs cause they cannot hone their skills but most kernel devs are professionals and has been in the industry for decades already. Like you don't just lose your ability to drive just because you haven't driven for years for example.
@Unn0wn
You don't lose your ability, but you're not as good.There are reasons why professionnal rally driver re-train to drive on ice/... before _each_ season.
Do mainly pr review instead of design/code/debug, and your proficiency will slowly erode.
And the best: you could not even detect it without any, objective, external metrics.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft ahahahahahahahaha may this humble a lot of insufferable linux bros...
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@futureisfoss @nixCraft You can fork anything, and the fork continues to work. The trouble is if you want to keep parity with all the future device drivers added to Linux, all the new features added, and all the bug and security fixes. That is an enormous effort, requiring thousands of people. Increasingly the burden of that work has shifted from enthusiasts and academics to teams of full-time software engineers working at their day jobs. Linux is big business now, and has been for some time.
I think you are right here and this is why I was wondering about the practicality of it. I know there exists other variants of the Linux kernel like Zen but I imagine these are small patches, removing all AI code from the kernel and then having to maintain it would be such an enormous effort. And then you also have the problem of detecting AI code among all the contributions, that can't be easy either.
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@argv_minus_one I suggest to read info from this repo with a slight skepticism.
I following and watching this repo for a long time and the more time passes — the more it reminds me a transcript of the congress of the Central Committee of the CPSU half-mixed with radicalism. Not just a well-structured list like https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html
So, it wasn't surprise when some OSes (
at least) were included in this list just because they required core approval for LLM commits (reading between the lines: core will not give this approval and as we see from the recently updated guidelines — finally, such commits were clearly prohibited).@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
@evgandr @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms thanks for your input. I'll resist a kneejerk reaction and take a deeper look at the BSDs while I'm exploring options. Although other alternatives are still interesting, if I can use a large mature Unix it will take over duties more easily from Linux than more unusual choices, so as a practical matter even "less tainted" is better than giving up on moving some things over until I can find something pure enough
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
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@futureisfoss @nixCraft This article summarizes the policy ultimately adopted:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-and-maintainers-finalize-ai-policy-for-linux-kernel-developers/ -
@nixCraft Sure, progress 'within a sustainable range'. But the .01% wealthiest #TechBros are putting the majority of eventual benefits, out of reach NOW, while we face more and more insurmountable crises just striving to survive.
The power abusers know this, and are Capitalizing on the destabilizations, with even further Divide and Conquer Strategies, while their progeny have luxury bunkers backing them up.
Supplant them with ethical #scientists.
@EvoScale @nixCraft when I rule the world, right, a planning condition for construction of any sort of doomsday bunker will be that the owner must spend at least one week a year in it, fully isolated, as if the atmosphere were full of radioactive dust and chemical / biological warfare agents. For their own safety, you understand, just to make sure the air and water filtration systems work properly. And of course none of that equipment may be serviced or maintained after installation, because what use would a bunker be when you have to call a service engineer out to fix the toilet under warranty, when half the northern hemisphere is gently glowing glass? See it wouldn't be safe enough to trust unless it's guaranteed to run for decades without attention.
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@EvoScale @nixCraft when I rule the world, right, a planning condition for construction of any sort of doomsday bunker will be that the owner must spend at least one week a year in it, fully isolated, as if the atmosphere were full of radioactive dust and chemical / biological warfare agents. For their own safety, you understand, just to make sure the air and water filtration systems work properly. And of course none of that equipment may be serviced or maintained after installation, because what use would a bunker be when you have to call a service engineer out to fix the toilet under warranty, when half the northern hemisphere is gently glowing glass? See it wouldn't be safe enough to trust unless it's guaranteed to run for decades without attention.
@BibbleCo Holy crap, you mean there really was efficacy to those micro-reactors?
