if you think the users are stupid, then you are letting your own arrogance reduce your own ability to analyze the problem space fully.
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if you think the users are stupid, then you are letting your own arrogance reduce your own ability to analyze the problem space fully.
users do things that make sense to them in the moment. failure to understand the context where an action -makes sense- and is thus the correct action to choose is a skill issue on your part.
@munin love making an impossible to navigate ui full of pitfalls and declaring that users should "git gud"
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if you think the users are stupid, then you are letting your own arrogance reduce your own ability to analyze the problem space fully.
users do things that make sense to them in the moment. failure to understand the context where an action -makes sense- and is thus the correct action to choose is a skill issue on your part.
@munin
> Jesus, these users do so much stupid shit, what the hell?
~~ Guy who built software that forces users to do stupid shit to work around it -
buddy, you can only have an interest in finding out if the resources are -there to tell you that there's something to find out-
you're blaming users for not knowing about something they're deliberately told doesn't exist.
that's fucked up.
@munin You can (still) run busybox on your phoneOS. You can hack a RasPi at school. The pointers are there. The resources are there. But perhaps I'm missing something and I didn't get the point you were making?
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@munin You can (still) run busybox on your phoneOS. You can hack a RasPi at school. The pointers are there. The resources are there. But perhaps I'm missing something and I didn't get the point you were making?
yes, the part where the comment you responded to saying that -new users- who -do not have experience- have all of those concepts deliberately the fuck hidden from them by the UI they are given, such that - even if they are curious - they are actively lied to -by the research resources- on a regular basis, and thus have no opportunity for success -with- their curiosity.
The workflow you are describing is -not reasonable- for your average 10 year old in this year, and shows that you are engaging in the though process I described in the last paragraph of the -prior- post: https://infosec.exchange/@munin/116771824701213509
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yes, the part where the comment you responded to saying that -new users- who -do not have experience- have all of those concepts deliberately the fuck hidden from them by the UI they are given, such that - even if they are curious - they are actively lied to -by the research resources- on a regular basis, and thus have no opportunity for success -with- their curiosity.
The workflow you are describing is -not reasonable- for your average 10 year old in this year, and shows that you are engaging in the though process I described in the last paragraph of the -prior- post: https://infosec.exchange/@munin/116771824701213509
Just because something is technically possible for an informed user does not mean that a user who has been -constrained from learning- will even know that such a thing exists.
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have you -seen- the world that they're experiencing now?
shit, the modern mobile OSs don't even want to acknowledge that filesystems exist in the UI. how the shit is a kid supposed to learn the "correct" way to do things in this situation?
@munin Proprietary corps don't give a shit. Uneducated users are their lifeblood. They'll sell you the manual, and the course, and send marketing to cover for you (if it's not their fault).
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@munin love making an impossible to navigate ui full of pitfalls and declaring that users should "git gud"
@artemist It's easy, just read the manual and try the included programming language amirite
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@munin Proprietary corps don't give a shit. Uneducated users are their lifeblood. They'll sell you the manual, and the course, and send marketing to cover for you (if it's not their fault).
and this cynical attitude disclaiming ability to make changes reinforces those patterns; do better.
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@munin love making an impossible to navigate ui full of pitfalls and declaring that users should "git gud"
@artemist
Love how that attitude is born of Dark Souls's ads rather than the content. I've got a hand eye coordination thing, Your Excellency. DS's interface isn't without flaws, but it's not in the way. The friction is where it should be, the challenge in the game.AND to Fi's original point, if all your users are idiots why are you designing for normies or geniuses? No, you're just saying you don't want to make the effort to communicate with the end user through interface and help.
@munin -
and this cynical attitude disclaiming ability to make changes reinforces those patterns; do better.
@munin Just representing the truth honestly. People don't get angry enough. Sometimes it's the right choice - particularly, when dealing with outright narcissism.
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buddy, you can only have an interest in finding out if the resources are -there to tell you that there's something to find out-
you're blaming users for not knowing about something they're deliberately told doesn't exist.
that's fucked up.
@munin @jsl
"you can only have an interest in finding out if the resources are -there to tell you that there's something to find out"
Yeah this kind of conundrum is why I've suggested creating GUIs where being a "know-nothing luser" is impossible:
https://fe.disroot.org/notice/B61RfP0sq02tRTpIjw
It'd be really cool if someone made a desktop environment where you can to pull up a program's source code by just right-clicking on the window or launcher icon: or if you could invoke those context menus from a button on the window bar.
(bonus points if the Linux Phone people add this functionality to an Android-style navigation bar) -
now, I will grant, for those of us who grew up dealing with asshole elders who refused to even consider learning how to interact with computers and demanded things "just work" that were wholly unreasonable, yeah, the 80s, '90s, and early '00s sucked.
get over it.
the fucking boomer dipshits are dying off, and a bunch of zeds and alphas are growing up with an ecosystem that's completely fucked for any attempt to learn on their own.
perhaps fix things for them instead of assuming they magically had access to magazines with BASIC listings and permissive environments where experimentation was at least tolerated, instead of being given a fucking menuless UI on a locked-down kiosk with fuck AI search results either refusing to give them necessary knowledge because it's "Hacking" or telling them to snort glue?
@munin I routinely have to remind a (very smart, terminally online) friend that we do not shame people for taking the path of least resistance and just using a computer in its default configuration with the web browser that was shoved in their face and no fancy pants extensions.
Yes we can try to educate (depending on our relationship) but we first have to acknowledge that the fact that the default state of computers is terrible is an indictment on the corporations that sell them, not an indictment of their users.
Imagine if you bought a new car, and you (yourself, not a mechanic) had to install seat belts and airbags and ABS and a number of other safety systems before even driving it off the lot in order to get car insurance. Sounds stupid, right?
And yet, that is what we somehow expect of ordinary users, and I am so, so tired of terrible defaults.
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@munin I routinely have to remind a (very smart, terminally online) friend that we do not shame people for taking the path of least resistance and just using a computer in its default configuration with the web browser that was shoved in their face and no fancy pants extensions.
Yes we can try to educate (depending on our relationship) but we first have to acknowledge that the fact that the default state of computers is terrible is an indictment on the corporations that sell them, not an indictment of their users.
Imagine if you bought a new car, and you (yourself, not a mechanic) had to install seat belts and airbags and ABS and a number of other safety systems before even driving it off the lot in order to get car insurance. Sounds stupid, right?
And yet, that is what we somehow expect of ordinary users, and I am so, so tired of terrible defaults.
"do not punish the behavior you wish to encourage" is a pretty useful concept to introduce people to.
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"do not punish the behavior you wish to encourage" is a pretty useful concept to introduce people to.
@munin also “make doing the right thing easy” (other side of the same coin perhaps?)
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@munin also “make doing the right thing easy” (other side of the same coin perhaps?)
it's the same picture
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now, I will grant, for those of us who grew up dealing with asshole elders who refused to even consider learning how to interact with computers and demanded things "just work" that were wholly unreasonable, yeah, the 80s, '90s, and early '00s sucked.
get over it.
the fucking boomer dipshits are dying off, and a bunch of zeds and alphas are growing up with an ecosystem that's completely fucked for any attempt to learn on their own.
perhaps fix things for them instead of assuming they magically had access to magazines with BASIC listings and permissive environments where experimentation was at least tolerated, instead of being given a fucking menuless UI on a locked-down kiosk with fuck AI search results either refusing to give them necessary knowledge because it's "Hacking" or telling them to snort glue?
@munin@infosec.exchange they are still alive and kicking in some places, but even then you can occasionally break through if the timing is right
never gets old, being able to educate people and have them understand what are relatively complex concepts if you just talk to them in the right way
fairly sure my many years of helping beginners with programming with varying degrees of english have given me a large leg up compared to my peers -
if you think the users are stupid, then you are letting your own arrogance reduce your own ability to analyze the problem space fully.
users do things that make sense to them in the moment. failure to understand the context where an action -makes sense- and is thus the correct action to choose is a skill issue on your part.
-
have you -seen- the world that they're experiencing now?
shit, the modern mobile OSs don't even want to acknowledge that filesystems exist in the UI. how the shit is a kid supposed to learn the "correct" way to do things in this situation?
@munin Yes.
Working helpdesk support with the intent of trying to find solutions that work well both for the user and the company really opens your eyes to this shit.
Sometimes users are lazy, yes, but never stupid. Pretty much anything anything people chalk up to stupidity is users following patterns they've often been forced into for years.
I will say there are sometimes no-win situations, where in order to act correctly a user would need to have knowledge that they just simply have absolutely no incentive to learn. But that's usually the company's fault.
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