I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
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@Hex Indeed. And as André Gorz wrote in the 50 year old, yet still relevant "The Social Ideology of the Car":
"The worst thing about cars is that they are like castles or villas by the sea: luxury goods invented for the exclusive pleasure of a very rich minority...And the essence of luxury is that it cannot be democratized. If everyone can have luxury, no one gets any advantages from it."
Analogously, mass AI use will destroy knowledge ecologies that make AI possible.
https://unevenearth.org/2018/08/the-social-ideology-of-the-motorcar/
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I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
People keep comparing "AI" to cars (positively) without thinking about the fact that cars were forced on people (AAA bought up and destroyed tram lines, there were massive protests, etc), and are the primary driver of climate change that is currently on track to make complex human society impossible. Meanwhile, cities that weren't destroyed for cars, or that have reversed most of the damage, are some of the most desirable places to live.
Maybe we could take the car analogy as a warning. Maybe it could be a reminder to think about how forcing technology on people against their will can reshape society in a profoundly negative way.
The answer for cities has been to right-size transit. Eliminate cars wherever possible, maintain emergency vehicles and mobility aids, and find more efficient alternatives (bikes, trams, metros, and trains) where possible. I feel as though we can extrapolate from the metaphor.
We do not have to repeat the mistake of reshaping society around a single, oversimplified, solution in order to benefit a tiny minority. Perhaps we can actually choose the right technologies based on use cases, rather than hype or dogma.
Cars didn't replace horses. Cars replaced walkable cities, tram lines and mass transit, and children playing in the streets.
"Cars replaced horses" to the benefit of a small group of elite men, at tremendous cost to literally everyone else. When people say, "AI is the new 'cars replacing horses'" they are saying something very specific about their privilege and intentions.
@Hex there’s a nice post on this thread on resetera https://www.resetera.com/threads/linus-torvalds-ai-is-a-tool-just-like-other-tools-we-use-and-its-clearly-a-useful-one.1578862/post-158015905 that explores the same comparison.
It took cities years to rightsize transit and limit cars to proper uses. Capitalists pushed them massively first and turned them into symbols of status, not caring the least for the crushed folks, noises, pollution. -
@hc oh, I forgot pandemics. As the climate changes animal ranges change which increases the opportunities for cross species infection. Cross species infection increases the probability of human infection. So climate change increases pandemic risk.
From a cybernetic perspective, there's a point where the complexity of the situation exceeds the ability of the society to absorb. We are approaching that point.
And the most skeptical climate scientists predict that human habitability will be significantly decreased. So far, the most extreme estimates about climate change have been an underestimate.
Now, I don't think we're talking "Venus" here, but we may well be talking about a climate that is so chaotic it's hard for humans to do anything but perpetually struggle to survive.
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@xylophilist apparently I missed "one of" that I thought I had typed.
But let's actually talk about that chart for a second. "Transportation" literally just means the fuel used. It doesn't account for the carbon released through the entire manufacturing process (from mining ore to steel refining, which is *huge*). That's all lumped into "industry." It also doesn't account for the electricity used for cooling, which is a side effect of the "heat island" effect caused by the giant rivers and lakes of asfalt needed for cars. Nor does it cover electricity generation for EVs. Both of those are in the number 1 category: "electricity and heat production."
The number one source of climate change globally is the US military. Guess what that military spends its time doing.
And while all of the rest of those are falling, guess which one is growing.
Yeah, I think I'll leave the mistake in.
@Hex @xylophilist The construction and maintenance of roads is also has a very substantial cost in fossil hydrocarbon use.
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I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
People keep comparing "AI" to cars (positively) without thinking about the fact that cars were forced on people (AAA bought up and destroyed tram lines, there were massive protests, etc), and are the primary driver of climate change that is currently on track to make complex human society impossible. Meanwhile, cities that weren't destroyed for cars, or that have reversed most of the damage, are some of the most desirable places to live.
Maybe we could take the car analogy as a warning. Maybe it could be a reminder to think about how forcing technology on people against their will can reshape society in a profoundly negative way.
The answer for cities has been to right-size transit. Eliminate cars wherever possible, maintain emergency vehicles and mobility aids, and find more efficient alternatives (bikes, trams, metros, and trains) where possible. I feel as though we can extrapolate from the metaphor.
We do not have to repeat the mistake of reshaping society around a single, oversimplified, solution in order to benefit a tiny minority. Perhaps we can actually choose the right technologies based on use cases, rather than hype or dogma.
Cars didn't replace horses. Cars replaced walkable cities, tram lines and mass transit, and children playing in the streets.
"Cars replaced horses" to the benefit of a small group of elite men, at tremendous cost to literally everyone else. When people say, "AI is the new 'cars replacing horses'" they are saying something very specific about their privilege and intentions.
@Hex I think @notjustbikes might like this ...
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I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
People keep comparing "AI" to cars (positively) without thinking about the fact that cars were forced on people (AAA bought up and destroyed tram lines, there were massive protests, etc), and are the primary driver of climate change that is currently on track to make complex human society impossible. Meanwhile, cities that weren't destroyed for cars, or that have reversed most of the damage, are some of the most desirable places to live.
Maybe we could take the car analogy as a warning. Maybe it could be a reminder to think about how forcing technology on people against their will can reshape society in a profoundly negative way.
The answer for cities has been to right-size transit. Eliminate cars wherever possible, maintain emergency vehicles and mobility aids, and find more efficient alternatives (bikes, trams, metros, and trains) where possible. I feel as though we can extrapolate from the metaphor.
We do not have to repeat the mistake of reshaping society around a single, oversimplified, solution in order to benefit a tiny minority. Perhaps we can actually choose the right technologies based on use cases, rather than hype or dogma.
Cars didn't replace horses. Cars replaced walkable cities, tram lines and mass transit, and children playing in the streets.
"Cars replaced horses" to the benefit of a small group of elite men, at tremendous cost to literally everyone else. When people say, "AI is the new 'cars replacing horses'" they are saying something very specific about their privilege and intentions.
@Hex They're also saying something about people who happily drive their car while saying AI is bad for us.
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Some old white dude decided to jump all over yelling "Ackchyually, no one forced you to buy a car!!", and I'm just blocking. This shit is so easy to research. Like, yeah, people were forced to buy a car by minimum parking zoning that spread out cities, mass transit being (very intentionally) destroyed, and giant cars that murder people. There are actual laws that very intentionally made things worse, and then there's the intentionally created prisoner's dilemma of ever expanding car sizes.
This shit is extremely easy to research. At this point I'm just assuming it's trolls or the type of people who would be like "but no one has *proved* smoking causes cancer" back in the 90's. Yeah, that was a thing, and they sounded *just fucking like these people today.*
@Hex I'm convinced that cars gave us a brain worm that is very similar to its AI cousin. Once it has taken hold, refflecting about cars or AI becomes almost impossible.
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@Hex it’s very difficult to talk plain facts with someone who has been brainwashed. we are living in a system designed to extract quality of life from the masses and concentrate it at the top. People will go down with their ship, defending this system, the same system that they are oppressed by. It’s actually scary. 
@TransitBiker @Hex Did you watch the Not Just Bikes video about how American fire trucks are too big? The part where a fire crew is showing how bike lanes supposedly prevent them getting their truck along a street that IS LINED WITH PARKED CARS THAT ARE APPARENTLY INVISIBLE made me want to scream. People literally being obstructed on the way to save lives can't see what is actually obstructing them, because cars are apparently just natural features of the landscape.
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@andymouse @Hex horses aren't as dangerous as cars but they're surprisingly dangerous
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@TransitBiker @Hex Did you watch the Not Just Bikes video about how American fire trucks are too big? The part where a fire crew is showing how bike lanes supposedly prevent them getting their truck along a street that IS LINED WITH PARKED CARS THAT ARE APPARENTLY INVISIBLE made me want to scream. People literally being obstructed on the way to save lives can't see what is actually obstructing them, because cars are apparently just natural features of the landscape.
@beecycling And don't forget the Diet Coke * Hamburger / Bald Eagle.
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@Hex but even if you weren't forced to buy a car you are forced to deal with the negative externalities like air pollution, noise pollution, and pedestrian fatalities. Let's not forget that cars brought us the delightful innovation of leaded gasoline, which then literally coated the planet in lead.
I do think LLMs are bringing us the next form of leaded gasoline, everything is getting worse, and all information is getting warped. Misinformation was already getting bad before LLMs but it's accelerated that problem by an order of magnitude. It seems to exacerbate mental health problems in many people. I could go on.
@fancysandwiches @Hex considering how many studies about AI-caused cognitive impairment (brain rot) are emerging (plus, damage to mental health), the lead analogy you pose is so appropriate.
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I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
People keep comparing "AI" to cars (positively) without thinking about the fact that cars were forced on people (AAA bought up and destroyed tram lines, there were massive protests, etc), and are the primary driver of climate change that is currently on track to make complex human society impossible. Meanwhile, cities that weren't destroyed for cars, or that have reversed most of the damage, are some of the most desirable places to live.
Maybe we could take the car analogy as a warning. Maybe it could be a reminder to think about how forcing technology on people against their will can reshape society in a profoundly negative way.
The answer for cities has been to right-size transit. Eliminate cars wherever possible, maintain emergency vehicles and mobility aids, and find more efficient alternatives (bikes, trams, metros, and trains) where possible. I feel as though we can extrapolate from the metaphor.
We do not have to repeat the mistake of reshaping society around a single, oversimplified, solution in order to benefit a tiny minority. Perhaps we can actually choose the right technologies based on use cases, rather than hype or dogma.
Cars didn't replace horses. Cars replaced walkable cities, tram lines and mass transit, and children playing in the streets.
"Cars replaced horses" to the benefit of a small group of elite men, at tremendous cost to literally everyone else. When people say, "AI is the new 'cars replacing horses'" they are saying something very specific about their privilege and intentions.
Why we are forcing needles and hammers on society [by a few white men] and making us dependent on tools that hit our thumbs? We should be building with clay instead! I think we should work this analogy further.
Replace hammers, cars, or AI with any tool, and you can build narratives showing structural dependence.
Nobody forces cars in here Finland. Except the evolution and gentrification of transportation (horses -> cars) and long distances on the country side
Fossil fuels are too cheap
@Hex -
@Hex Your supposed "fact" that cars are somehow the "primary driver of climate change" is horseshit.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-overview
@xylophilist @Hex dunno were you took those but most resources I've seen in my lifetime regard "industry" as the top one.
That one includes, obviously, the costs in transport. For no industry is completed without giant ass trucks.
Electricity is usually right behind, so it's not that hard see how the methods of measuring may swap both places. -
Some old white dude decided to jump all over yelling "Ackchyually, no one forced you to buy a car!!", and I'm just blocking. This shit is so easy to research. Like, yeah, people were forced to buy a car by minimum parking zoning that spread out cities, mass transit being (very intentionally) destroyed, and giant cars that murder people. There are actual laws that very intentionally made things worse, and then there's the intentionally created prisoner's dilemma of ever expanding car sizes.
This shit is extremely easy to research. At this point I'm just assuming it's trolls or the type of people who would be like "but no one has *proved* smoking causes cancer" back in the 90's. Yeah, that was a thing, and they sounded *just fucking like these people today.*
Sealioning cultists are swarming like muggen and earn the same treatment.
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@richpuchalsky @Hex no, because of they did, they would have to think about who they put in power. They would have to think!
@LieschenrelleuM
Sure a vote ("put in power") could have some effect, but the idea of us putting people in power is a complete misreading of our Western democratic systems. It's a diversion of how power works here.When all your politicians are pro-cars because"it's the future! it's freedom!", or turn pro-cars after the elections (see Labour UK) or when your "choice" is limited to 2 parties (see USA), you're not going to think yourself out of this situation.
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I keep seeing the "cars replaced horses" thing related to "AI."
People keep comparing "AI" to cars (positively) without thinking about the fact that cars were forced on people (AAA bought up and destroyed tram lines, there were massive protests, etc), and are the primary driver of climate change that is currently on track to make complex human society impossible. Meanwhile, cities that weren't destroyed for cars, or that have reversed most of the damage, are some of the most desirable places to live.
Maybe we could take the car analogy as a warning. Maybe it could be a reminder to think about how forcing technology on people against their will can reshape society in a profoundly negative way.
The answer for cities has been to right-size transit. Eliminate cars wherever possible, maintain emergency vehicles and mobility aids, and find more efficient alternatives (bikes, trams, metros, and trains) where possible. I feel as though we can extrapolate from the metaphor.
We do not have to repeat the mistake of reshaping society around a single, oversimplified, solution in order to benefit a tiny minority. Perhaps we can actually choose the right technologies based on use cases, rather than hype or dogma.
Cars didn't replace horses. Cars replaced walkable cities, tram lines and mass transit, and children playing in the streets.
"Cars replaced horses" to the benefit of a small group of elite men, at tremendous cost to literally everyone else. When people say, "AI is the new 'cars replacing horses'" they are saying something very specific about their privilege and intentions.
thought this was apt:
https://mastodonapp.uk/@MarkHoltom/116946077281335738 -
@Hex Still reading, totally with you... "but", don't forget that not the whole planet works like the US. While what you said is true _specifically_ for the US, for europe it is actually not.
You argument is still valid.
I for myself tried to compare it with staying in the bronze age while the rest of the world embraces and develops iron and steel .... Which at least fitted the aspect of the enourmous resource cost .. but lacked the part where cars actually killed of thousands of jobs within a generation and made millions jobless because nobody needed horse farmsand so on anymore.
But all of that does'nt really fit the actual problems we have _today_.
I didn't (directly) use AI yet and i don't plan to change that .. but OTOH i'm a techie and deeply fascinated by all of it.
IMHO, what we need is to understand that it is not "just" the technology but - as you said - it getting massively enforced upon users by literally _everyone_ of the top 1%.
Getting cars in to the hands of the everyday average ppl had at least some positive aspect in the moment. How bad it became in the long run wasn't as clear.
But today, we actually know what the plan behind it is. Centralisation of information and computing.... Actually killing off "home computing" for the profit of GAFAM and their owners.
That's a real threat towards our freedoms.
And IMHO, we get actually used by them because we (all) start(ed) another holy war about if AI is useful or not ...... completely ignoring the actors behind, helping them by ripping eachother apart over what to do or not..
It's just sad.
@hackbyte
Nah, this is about Europe too. In the Netherlands it took decades of protests and actions like road blocks to change just a tiny bit of the car-centricity of this country. While still better than most countries, the Netherlands still has cars almost everywhere. And they're also getting bigger and deadlier.Re AI: my city Amsterdam gets a hypercenter and a "regular" data center in the South-East while we also suffer a water shortage at the moment. This under a "left"-leaning city council.
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@hackbyte
Nah, this is about Europe too. In the Netherlands it took decades of protests and actions like road blocks to change just a tiny bit of the car-centricity of this country. While still better than most countries, the Netherlands still has cars almost everywhere. And they're also getting bigger and deadlier.Re AI: my city Amsterdam gets a hypercenter and a "regular" data center in the South-East while we also suffer a water shortage at the moment. This under a "left"-leaning city council.
@Heidentweet @hackbyte FFS, I didn't know about the datacenter.
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@Heidentweet @hackbyte FFS, I didn't know about the datacenter.
@Hex
The hyper one, 85 mt high: https://extinctionrebellion.nl/extinction-rebellion-verzwakt-betonnen-fundering-datacenter-in-aanbouw-met-waterballonnen-met-chemische-vloeistof/ Technically illegal as it only got an environmental permit in effing 2025. Wonder who was responsible for that. Undoubtedly XR is going to be labelled terrorists soon.And the one on Amstel-III, "only' 60 mt and just the first part, in a housing area too:
https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/239023/vergunning-verleend-voor-nieuw-datacenter-in-zuidoostThe Council did the same with the hotel room stops: only after year whatever and with multiple exemptions.
I so loath these people. -
Some old white dude decided to jump all over yelling "Ackchyually, no one forced you to buy a car!!", and I'm just blocking. This shit is so easy to research. Like, yeah, people were forced to buy a car by minimum parking zoning that spread out cities, mass transit being (very intentionally) destroyed, and giant cars that murder people. There are actual laws that very intentionally made things worse, and then there's the intentionally created prisoner's dilemma of ever expanding car sizes.
This shit is extremely easy to research. At this point I'm just assuming it's trolls or the type of people who would be like "but no one has *proved* smoking causes cancer" back in the 90's. Yeah, that was a thing, and they sounded *just fucking like these people today.*
@Hex I'll also say: there's also a shit ton of people who reject the idea that complex decision making systems like you describe exist or should exist. They literally don't see what you describe as "force".
