hey so about your favorite boy hank green.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt we agree that there are cults in the strict sense within that broadly-defined cluster, for sure.
TESCREAL is an umbrella term, which is important when opposing it because the thing being fought is amorphous, but it's also important to not mistake a part for the whole or vice-versa
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt it's not that amorphous and it's closer knit than its marketing pretends
like I used to say "the LessWrong-originated subculture" but "TESCREAL" is a term that means the same thing
do you have particular good bits you're thinking of? cos substantially it's a sea of rancid
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@cyberquixote you just gotta wear your autism like an albacore around your neck to remind you of the weight of your responsibilities to the world @zzt
@xan @cyberquixote @zzt Albacore > albatross - good swap for the image.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt all we're advocating for is careful thinking. if we get sloppy we can't strategize.
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt if you can point to a specific objection feel free, but a nonspecific claim I'm being sloppy, that i'm engaging in careless thinking, or that i'm mistaking a part for the whole or vice-versa sort of requires you to actually get specific, else it's a bit less than worthless. i have a large bag of specifics here if you are able to argue those.
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt if you can point to a specific objection feel free, but a nonspecific claim I'm being sloppy, that i'm engaging in careless thinking, or that i'm mistaking a part for the whole or vice-versa sort of requires you to actually get specific, else it's a bit less than worthless. i have a large bag of specifics here if you are able to argue those.
@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt oh it's all bad. we're not saying any of it is good. we understand how any disagreement is going to come off that way, but we agree strongly with the emotion of what you're saying
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt oh it's all bad. we're not saying any of it is good. we understand how any disagreement is going to come off that way, but we agree strongly with the emotion of what you're saying
@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt
it's the substance we take issue with. our point is quite simply that if we can't think precisely, we can't strategize for how to fight effectively. this tendency everyone seems to have to gesture at a feeling and use it as a basis for planning, is, like... bad. self-defeating. -
@noiseician @ireneista @zzt I spent the 90s learning far too much about Scientology, which is the Godwin example of a cult
but I would absolutely put the TESCREAL cluster in the same box
it's not just a cult! it's a cult incubator!
everything the way it's set up is high control and abuses people for power over them, it's full of sexual predators, and it has little offshoot cults that try to kill people. also many individuals driven to violent madness by its demands.
the Zizians are the famous offshoot, but also there's Leverage Research who were sure sufficient study of rationality would grant you actual psychic powers.
it's pretty awesome!
also they publicly declared me the #1 enemy of Rationality.
fortunately, i'm protected by them being the greatest pile of fuckups i can think of
@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I don't have a bookmarked piece of writing that's like a tour of why EAs (LessWrong, and the rest) are fkin bananas
Especially for people who outright reject the notion of the 'TESCREAL bundle'.
I wish I had one.
But also I imagine it's just too complicated, messy and bizarre to explain very succinctly
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt
it's the substance we take issue with. our point is quite simply that if we can't think precisely, we can't strategize for how to fight effectively. this tendency everyone seems to have to gesture at a feeling and use it as a basis for planning, is, like... bad. self-defeating.@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt sorry if we're a little worked up about it but we needed to channel some emotion to get our point out. we hope it makes sense at least.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I don't have a bookmarked piece of writing that's like a tour of why EAs (LessWrong, and the rest) are fkin bananas
Especially for people who outright reject the notion of the 'TESCREAL bundle'.
I wish I had one.
But also I imagine it's just too complicated, messy and bizarre to explain very succinctly@noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @zzt we were in the room when the term TESCREAL was coined. we strongly endorse using that term in fighting it.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I don't have a bookmarked piece of writing that's like a tour of why EAs (LessWrong, and the rest) are fkin bananas
Especially for people who outright reject the notion of the 'TESCREAL bundle'.
I wish I had one.
But also I imagine it's just too complicated, messy and bizarre to explain very succinctly@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I do! It's "More Everything Forever" by Adam Becker and it's the book I was failing to write over 2018-2021!
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@noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @zzt we were in the room when the term TESCREAL was coined. we strongly endorse using that term in fighting it.
@noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if your takeaway is that we disagree with your points, you're not reading a word we say.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt oh it's all bad. we're not saying any of it is good. we understand how any disagreement is going to come off that way, but we agree strongly with the emotion of what you're saying
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt that's great! so please do withdraw your claims that you made in direct response to a carefully weighed statement on an area that actually I know a fucking lot about
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt that's great! so please do withdraw your claims that you made in direct response to a carefully weighed statement on an area that actually I know a fucking lot about
@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt beg pardon? we are fucking agreeing with you about everything except one specific thing about how this is framed. could you please re-read what we wrote and tell us which part you are asking us to retract?
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt right, so you said that responding directly to me, so what percentage are you putting that as applying to what I wrote 0%, 100% or something else?
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt right, so you said that responding directly to me, so what percentage are you putting that as applying to what I wrote 0%, 100% or something else?
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
@davidgerard so the sequence of events from our perspective is that @zzt said something we agree with, and we said so. @noiseician replied to us dragging things in the direction of more emotional, less oureasoned, along a specific pattern we've identified as important to counterbalance, so we did so. we didn't notice you were @'d in by the original QT at this point, and would have removed you if we had, sorry about that. >
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
@davidgerard so the sequence of events from our perspective is that @zzt said something we agree with, and we said so. @noiseician replied to us dragging things in the direction of more emotional, less oureasoned, along a specific pattern we've identified as important to counterbalance, so we did so. we didn't notice you were @'d in by the original QT at this point, and would have removed you if we had, sorry about that. >
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@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
@zzt @davidgerard @noiseician we adore the term. it's a great term. we endorse it strongly. we agree that there are multiple cults under the TESCREAL umbrella. we apologize that it came off as if we were saying something else; we have been attempting to agree with all that from the start. see our replies to David for further details, we don't have the energy to say it again.
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@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I do! It's "More Everything Forever" by Adam Becker and it's the book I was failing to write over 2018-2021!
@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt looks like it might be similar to this!
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-nerd-reich-silicon-valley-fascism-and-the-war-on-democracy-gil-dur-n/a6f6f0dce1150339
Added to TBR pileI was mostly thinking of a shareable article for an overview but yeah, seems too sprawling to contain
