Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron it if's a community comprised of ai I'm fine with it. if it's techbros abusing ai then meh
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life The mute function is strong in mastodon so I don’t see certain posts which means less likes and interactions. I have it set to completely hide in my timelines.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
If you're all about the likes, boosts, and replies, I'm not here for you and won't follow. Same if you boost/post excessively to get attention.
If you're here only to drive traffic to your website, there's a good chance I'll mute or block you.
If you'e not using hashtags, I'll have a hard time discovering you.
If you're posting to start a discussion and participate in that discussion, you've got my attention so long as I find the topic and discussion interesting.
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@scottjenson @Gargron I'd have to ask, what value would an an AI Booster community bring to the FediVerse?
@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron This is a very rich ethics question hidden in a specific example.
Would you permit or allow any community with which you disagree to participate on a platform, even if you’re not forced to participate?
A shortlist of thought experiments, to broaden the perspective, some of which are already here, some not…
- The oil & gas community
- Forestry workers (logging)
- The cryptocurrency community
- Workers at a chick rendering plant
- The finance industry
- Adult content creators
- Religious communitiesIs there a litmus test for topics that you can or can’t discuss on the fediverse? Specific servers sure, but the whole fediverse?
Does that align with the values put forth by mastodon or the fediverse in general?
I don’t have the answers.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson I really appreciate you advocating for a flexible and inclusive platform. I don't know what to do, but I support the mission. I'd love to see everyone on for-profit social media take collective ownership of their platforms. I'd love Mastadon to be welcoming to all sorts of people.
Based on your replies (including the founder of Mastodon!) I'm not optimistic that this platform will ever grow beyond niche microblogging for losers.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson so, I find this discussion disappointing for a few reasons.
The biggest one is this: all three platforms that @carnage4life calls out are connected via ActivityPub. They are on one inter-network.
In theory, he should not need three different accounts, with three different follower groups. He should have one account, and all 103k followers (minus duplicates!) could be part of the same conversation, on whatever server platform they use.
In practice, few people do this today.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron It already allows that. The culture simply isn’t permissive of it. But that has nothing to do with the technology.
Mastodon is a system which attracts certain audiences because of its values and choices. Those are different to other systems. That’s perfectly fine. That’s good.
We don’t need to seek an audience with the same make up as other services. We need to work on systems that have the values we care about. Nothing more.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
the ai community needs to have a reckoning with the fact that the politics and the technology are deeply entwined to the point of being inseparable
this isn’t “oh we don’t like it and they do,” this isn’t about matters of taste and preference; this is “we attempt to recognize the full extent of the politically, environmentally, and socially problematic nature of this project while they don’t”
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron There are no blockers with the software for any community, AI or otherwise.
What’s the definition of ‘thrive’? Federation means de facto, traditional metrics like ‘reach’ and ‘engagement’ won’t ever be on a scale like a monolith like Twitter/Bsky/Threads.
Mastodon is as open as it can possibly be… in fact, it is SO open, the scale of reach you can achieve with those other platforms is literally impossible. Millions of intersecting communities, at a more human scale.
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@scottjenson so, I find this discussion disappointing for a few reasons.
The biggest one is this: all three platforms that @carnage4life calls out are connected via ActivityPub. They are on one inter-network.
In theory, he should not need three different accounts, with three different follower groups. He should have one account, and all 103k followers (minus duplicates!) could be part of the same conversation, on whatever server platform they use.
In practice, few people do this today.
As technologists we need to do more to smooth those junctures and make them less of a barrier. I hope in a few years when @carnage4life looks at his network, it feels more integrated and less separated.
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the ai community needs to have a reckoning with the fact that the politics and the technology are deeply entwined to the point of being inseparable
this isn’t “oh we don’t like it and they do,” this isn’t about matters of taste and preference; this is “we attempt to recognize the full extent of the politically, environmentally, and socially problematic nature of this project while they don’t”
@scottjenson so sure if they want to have that reckoning on a platform, have at it, if not, what does anybody here gain from platforming technology sanewashing in the service of the current power structure
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@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron This is a very rich ethics question hidden in a specific example.
Would you permit or allow any community with which you disagree to participate on a platform, even if you’re not forced to participate?
A shortlist of thought experiments, to broaden the perspective, some of which are already here, some not…
- The oil & gas community
- Forestry workers (logging)
- The cryptocurrency community
- Workers at a chick rendering plant
- The finance industry
- Adult content creators
- Religious communitiesIs there a litmus test for topics that you can or can’t discuss on the fediverse? Specific servers sure, but the whole fediverse?
Does that align with the values put forth by mastodon or the fediverse in general?
I don’t have the answers.
@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron by definition, no. Literally anyone can spin up a server and talk about anything/try to get more folk to listen…
But other folk have to want to listen to whatever they are saying. Servers and individuals can just decide not to. No one is guaranteed an audience, just the ability to speak.
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@scottjenson I really appreciate you advocating for a flexible and inclusive platform. I don't know what to do, but I support the mission. I'd love to see everyone on for-profit social media take collective ownership of their platforms. I'd love Mastadon to be welcoming to all sorts of people.
Based on your replies (including the founder of Mastodon!) I'm not optimistic that this platform will ever grow beyond niche microblogging for losers.
@seanwolter @scottjenson You were making decent points until you called everyone here a loser.
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson Scott, let me reframe your stance in another way. Maybe it is precisely the success of Mastodon’s design and direction that allows here to be a place that *is not* being subjected to the artificial and bubble-nature of AI that exists everywhere else. (1/2)
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@Gargron @scottjenson Scott, let me reframe your stance in another way. Maybe it is precisely the success of Mastodon’s design and direction that allows here to be a place that *is not* being subjected to the artificial and bubble-nature of AI that exists everywhere else. (1/2)
This is a space that lets anyone say anything. It is a space that doesn’t give benefits to engagement farming techniques. It is largely *human centred* and free. Soooo… baring more controls for people to be safe as an ongoing problem causing misrepresentiaon of some peoples; why is it a problem if we don’t see bitcoin grifts here? AI grifts? Business accounts? Etc? The values simply don’t align. (2/2)
@Gargron @scottjenson -
As technologists we need to do more to smooth those junctures and make them less of a barrier. I hope in a few years when @carnage4life looks at his network, it feels more integrated and less separated.
@scottjenson @carnage4life on the topic of AI, I find the abusive conversations on the Fediverse pretty dispiriting. People I like and respect have worked themselves into the position that use of AI is an inexcusable sin, and that anyone who uses AI merits harassment and abuse. Given that 85% of developers use or plan to use AI (Stack Overflow poll), that means a huge number of tech people getting brigaded by our anti-AI squad.
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@scottjenson @Gargron There are no blockers with the software for any community, AI or otherwise.
What’s the definition of ‘thrive’? Federation means de facto, traditional metrics like ‘reach’ and ‘engagement’ won’t ever be on a scale like a monolith like Twitter/Bsky/Threads.
Mastodon is as open as it can possibly be… in fact, it is SO open, the scale of reach you can achieve with those other platforms is literally impossible. Millions of intersecting communities, at a more human scale.
@octothorpe @Gargron I think the "Black Twitter" migration of 2022 would disagree.
Of course there are no technical reasons this can't happen. My original post wasn't about technology but culture. The Mastodon culture (for complex reasons) chased away black twitter. It's doing the same with AI and my biggest worry, many other topics that "don't fit".
There *is* a culture to Mastodon outside of the tech and I'm suggesting that it is too exclusive. This ultimately hurts us.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life on the topic of AI, I find the abusive conversations on the Fediverse pretty dispiriting. People I like and respect have worked themselves into the position that use of AI is an inexcusable sin, and that anyone who uses AI merits harassment and abuse. Given that 85% of developers use or plan to use AI (Stack Overflow poll), that means a huge number of tech people getting brigaded by our anti-AI squad.
@scottjenson @carnage4life I've tried to mitigate that a bit by sharing my own experience with AI as a development tool. I know there are other people on the Fediverse who talk about how and when they use AI, with or without misgivings.
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@scottjenson That’s not an observation about your stance specifically but that of Mastodon as a larger entity. It is undeniable that there have been many years of failure to listen to Black voices, which led to the massive disparity in representation here. I would far rather *that* get listened to than the concern about what boil down to corporate representation.
It’s not that journalists etc can’t post here. If the value they cared about was information dissemination they’d do it already.
@mattwilcox @scottjenson your literal first reponse to a Black writer was verbatim: "No. I don’t particularly want them here.", how do you think that gets interpreted?
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@scottjenson @Gargron It already allows that. The culture simply isn’t permissive of it. But that has nothing to do with the technology.
Mastodon is a system which attracts certain audiences because of its values and choices. Those are different to other systems. That’s perfectly fine. That’s good.
We don’t need to seek an audience with the same make up as other services. We need to work on systems that have the values we care about. Nothing more.
@mattwilcox @Gargron But that is a slippery slope. I realize this might seem contentious but I believe it's is exactly the same mechanism that chased away black twitter in 2022. If we celebrate our culture, to the point that we are happy we are excluding others, it can cut both ways.
"Being inclusive" is like being "ethical" it only matters when things get hard.
