I remember reading about a psychological experiment where participants were divided into a red and blue team, and asked to play in a competition against each other.
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Humans are tribal by nature. It was important in our evolutionary history that we band together, that we put the group first. It's hard to be logical when group allegiances are brought into play.
Every woman, and those who have been read as women, knows the phenomenon where a man has clearly done wrong, but the other men around him shelter him from criticism. Maybe they deny the wrongdoing outright. Maybe he makes a brief apology and the men demand that that be the end of it.
Group loyalty makes it so hard to see both structural biases, and our personal ones.
2/@Tattie
good morning. I find this interesting, and reminds me of incidents that I was part of. I read a lot of Physiology stuff.
I believe I can be impartial, unbiased and fair, but that's not for me to decide, but my shipmates have indicated they were impressed.I was in the MOB (Military) and the Male Group mentality. I know it too well, it is present in Military, Police, and large male driven corporations in Automotive industries and plants. Men rule.
My ship, was the first destroyer to take women onboard when there was integration. Of course there were problems, and still are, but I was surprised to find women did not want a ship full of just women. They felt they could not live in a ship where it was all women, even though since the beginning of time, males have had to sail with just male company. I found that odd. We have a French Ship, and all male ships, why not a female ship?
My thought, is they would become excellent, and kick the shit out of competition, since the majority of women have had to really work to get in position, while men just got there. Competition would favor the women, I think, in such cases.I was the only male manager that went to a FEMALES IN THE NAVY conference to try to make things work out better. Much of the problems came from home. Wives worry when men are away from home for long periods and are alone on ship with females.
I find that male voices are paid attention to more than female voices (particularly true on parade)
When I yell 'TENSION, at lest 50 people in voice range will snap to attention. When a female leader yells, it is lower power, higher pitch and because of males, is regarded less effectively. I don't know how we get around that. I think it's a cultural thing that will be around forever.Side note. Woman makes one mistake, man labels her, she lives with it for life.
Man makes one mistake, or 10, says he's sorry, and it's never spoken of again .
I regard gender differences like that with anger. And when a woman joined to be a gunner, she has to carry a gun, and male mentality wants to carry it for her, defeating the purpose and breaking the equalityI struggle to agree with most males in the gender discussions.
And in my experience, 75% of the females we took on, were more valuable to me than their male peers. -
When we ask men, in the name of feminism, to call out other men, to demand fair treatment of women and people of minoritised gender, it's not a small ask.
We're asking them to go against instinct, against group loyalty and group thought.
We're asking them to stand against the coding they've been subject to all their lives, the unspoken agreement that they do not acknowledge that the competition was rigged for their team.
I'm not saying I forgive sexism as "natural". It's still dead wrong. But I'm acknowledging the internal struggle, and inviting men to do so as well. Knowing your own brain is part of the problem is half the battle.
3/I wonder what would happen if we did a similar experiment, but in the middle of it a few people said they were deciding to switch teams. Not revealing that they'd been asked to do this as part of the experiment, but just presenting it as their own decision.
How would they be met? Suspicion? Outrage?
"You can't do that! There are rules!"
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I wonder what would happen if we did a similar experiment, but in the middle of it a few people said they were deciding to switch teams. Not revealing that they'd been asked to do this as part of the experiment, but just presenting it as their own decision.
How would they be met? Suspicion? Outrage?
"You can't do that! There are rules!"
4/I suspect a fair bit of transphobia is due to deep-seated instinctive anger against anyone "betraying the team". Why would a person do this? They must surely be getting some personal advantage, it's the only explanation! Selfish! Untrustworthy! Against the rules!
In truth, the fact that people can and do "switch teams" is a huge piece of evidence for existence of implicit gender identity, whatever that might be and wherever it sits.
It is not fucking easy to call into question the team you were assigned by society at birth. Especially when you don't understand yourself what's driving you to do so.
5/ -
I suspect a fair bit of transphobia is due to deep-seated instinctive anger against anyone "betraying the team". Why would a person do this? They must surely be getting some personal advantage, it's the only explanation! Selfish! Untrustworthy! Against the rules!
In truth, the fact that people can and do "switch teams" is a huge piece of evidence for existence of implicit gender identity, whatever that might be and wherever it sits.
It is not fucking easy to call into question the team you were assigned by society at birth. Especially when you don't understand yourself what's driving you to do so.
5/Anyway as a red-to-blue transteamual, I can confirm the existence of systemic red bias in this whole experiment we seem to be in. Tho I don't regret changing teams, because blue just looks better on me, ya know?
🤭
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Anyway as a red-to-blue transteamual, I can confirm the existence of systemic red bias in this whole experiment we seem to be in. Tho I don't regret changing teams, because blue just looks better on me, ya know?
🤭
6/ -
Anyway as a red-to-blue transteamual, I can confirm the existence of systemic red bias in this whole experiment we seem to be in. Tho I don't regret changing teams, because blue just looks better on me, ya know?
🤭
6/But seriously, being trans has given me insight into how arbitrary gender constructions are. You put on a different coloured shirt (or a dress), and immediately you start to be interpreted differently. Because men are like this, and women are like that, we're told.
So much of "gender difference" is the red team— men, that is— trying to justify to themselves how they're just more skillful players, rather than being born into a system that favours them. A system that they largely control the rules of, and generation after generation, collectively decide to maintain for another cycle.
7/ -
But seriously, being trans has given me insight into how arbitrary gender constructions are. You put on a different coloured shirt (or a dress), and immediately you start to be interpreted differently. Because men are like this, and women are like that, we're told.
So much of "gender difference" is the red team— men, that is— trying to justify to themselves how they're just more skillful players, rather than being born into a system that favours them. A system that they largely control the rules of, and generation after generation, collectively decide to maintain for another cycle.
7/Thank you for your posts Tattie, I like your analysis.
I've heard other speakers not only point out the significant sexism, but also how misogyny is often harmful to the red team, to have to perform, to grow up on the better team, they lose out too. Then we ask the red team members who can see the problem if they can help us change the rules, as it'll help them too.
Have a lovely Sunday
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I suspect a fair bit of transphobia is due to deep-seated instinctive anger against anyone "betraying the team". Why would a person do this? They must surely be getting some personal advantage, it's the only explanation! Selfish! Untrustworthy! Against the rules!
In truth, the fact that people can and do "switch teams" is a huge piece of evidence for existence of implicit gender identity, whatever that might be and wherever it sits.
It is not fucking easy to call into question the team you were assigned by society at birth. Especially when you don't understand yourself what's driving you to do so.
5/@Tattie As a bisexual, this checks out. There's a lot of pressure from both the red and blue teams to just "pick a side." Some do want to claim you for a particular side -- theirs because they think it's better, the one that your current (presumed-)partner would make you align with, etc. -- but a lot just want you to settle down onto either team so the world fits into their sense of it.
I've been bi my whole adult life, so 20 years of this meant transition was familiar to me in many ways!
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But seriously, being trans has given me insight into how arbitrary gender constructions are. You put on a different coloured shirt (or a dress), and immediately you start to be interpreted differently. Because men are like this, and women are like that, we're told.
So much of "gender difference" is the red team— men, that is— trying to justify to themselves how they're just more skillful players, rather than being born into a system that favours them. A system that they largely control the rules of, and generation after generation, collectively decide to maintain for another cycle.
7/I understand less the women who believe in implicit gender difference (or 'sex difference'). But perhaps I should look at another example of team thinking, one very close to home:
"Oh, Scotland made it into the semifinals! We'll lose, of course. That's what we always do."
There's a certain psychological comfort in accepting "that's just how things are". If not outright Just World Fallacy, it's at least a belief in a consistent world.
Tho I'm hesitant to focus too strongly on this, because despite what the media implies, most people arguing for the idea of sex difference are men. The majority of internet comments by "gender critical females" show evidence of being bot accounts (recently created, small comment history, very consistent wording), operated by persons unknown.
8/ -
I understand less the women who believe in implicit gender difference (or 'sex difference'). But perhaps I should look at another example of team thinking, one very close to home:
"Oh, Scotland made it into the semifinals! We'll lose, of course. That's what we always do."
There's a certain psychological comfort in accepting "that's just how things are". If not outright Just World Fallacy, it's at least a belief in a consistent world.
Tho I'm hesitant to focus too strongly on this, because despite what the media implies, most people arguing for the idea of sex difference are men. The majority of internet comments by "gender critical females" show evidence of being bot accounts (recently created, small comment history, very consistent wording), operated by persons unknown.
8/Actually probably a lot of it is more benign than that. There seems to consistently be a tendency to encode a team character, whether that's positive, negative, or basically harmless.
Man City supporters are like this. Italians are like that.
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9/ -
But seriously, being trans has given me insight into how arbitrary gender constructions are. You put on a different coloured shirt (or a dress), and immediately you start to be interpreted differently. Because men are like this, and women are like that, we're told.
So much of "gender difference" is the red team— men, that is— trying to justify to themselves how they're just more skillful players, rather than being born into a system that favours them. A system that they largely control the rules of, and generation after generation, collectively decide to maintain for another cycle.
7/I would maybe introduce the nuance of National Leagues, where the Blue teams play among themselves, and the Red teams play each other. And compare this to International Competitions where it's Blue teams against Red teams.
From my perspective there seems to be a stronger, dog eat dog, survival of the fittest mentality among men. With women there seems to be a stronger, nobody is left behind, help those who need help mentality.
This is hugely over simplified but you can see how, for example, a man helping a weaker man might be shunned by the group making others reluctant to show such weakness themselves.
This may be in the origin male roles versus female roles, which leads to the difficult question of if your gender is wrong or society is wrong.
I think society needs the differences, which is why some people feel misgendered in society.
Others may feel society should change. -
When we ask men, in the name of feminism, to call out other men, to demand fair treatment of women and people of minoritised gender, it's not a small ask.
We're asking them to go against instinct, against group loyalty and group thought.
We're asking them to stand against the coding they've been subject to all their lives, the unspoken agreement that they do not acknowledge that the competition was rigged for their team.
I'm not saying I forgive sexism as "natural". It's still dead wrong. But I'm acknowledging the internal struggle, and inviting men to do so as well. Knowing your own brain is part of the problem is half the battle.
3/@Tattie I believe the same mechanism works when it comes to 'strangers'/migrants, towards poor people and towards other people in society the majority (the tribe) doesn't connect with. This is what keeps the status-quo and the power distribution.
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When we ask men, in the name of feminism, to call out other men, to demand fair treatment of women and people of minoritised gender, it's not a small ask.
We're asking them to go against instinct, against group loyalty and group thought.
We're asking them to stand against the coding they've been subject to all their lives, the unspoken agreement that they do not acknowledge that the competition was rigged for their team.
I'm not saying I forgive sexism as "natural". It's still dead wrong. But I'm acknowledging the internal struggle, and inviting men to do so as well. Knowing your own brain is part of the problem is half the battle.
3/@Tattie we are all predisposed to identify "kin". In old times that might be our small tribe, and every human you didn't recognise was "other", but that doesn't work in today's world. So we look for "kinship" in other ways. Sex, "male" v "female" is one. Nationality, ethnicity, political affiliation, sports fans, etc. We are susceptible to "group think" when we identify with ANY such group and we want to believe "we" are always right and "they" are always wrong. Self awareness is really hard.
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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Actually probably a lot of it is more benign than that. There seems to consistently be a tendency to encode a team character, whether that's positive, negative, or basically harmless.
Man City supporters are like this. Italians are like that.
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9/@Tattie At the moment, the discussions on r/MCFC are showing a wide range of character and opinion. From “We’re doomed!” to “it will just get overturned on appeal due to expensive lawyers” to “what happens to the giant, respected accountancy firm who were involved” and everything in-between.
The difference is probably how long someone has been a fan - as a very old fan, I am on the side of inevitable doom.
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Actually probably a lot of it is more benign than that. There seems to consistently be a tendency to encode a team character, whether that's positive, negative, or basically harmless.
Man City supporters are like this. Italians are like that.
️
9/I'm getting into stream-of-consciousness mode, which suggests I should conclude this thread somehow.
I guess I'm imploring people to be aware of the human instinct to construct difference based on arbitrary team membership. To be aware how this can colour how you see men and women, and their actions. To be aware that this feeds into and powers patriarchy, and can lead you to instinctively act to increase rather than reduce male privilege.
If we understand our instincts, and consciously compensate for them, it doesn't have to be this way.
Fin/ -
Actually probably a lot of it is more benign than that. There seems to consistently be a tendency to encode a team character, whether that's positive, negative, or basically harmless.
Man City supporters are like this. Italians are like that.
️
9/@Tattie (Did you intentionally pick two teams with a blue strip there?)
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I'm getting into stream-of-consciousness mode, which suggests I should conclude this thread somehow.
I guess I'm imploring people to be aware of the human instinct to construct difference based on arbitrary team membership. To be aware how this can colour how you see men and women, and their actions. To be aware that this feeds into and powers patriarchy, and can lead you to instinctively act to increase rather than reduce male privilege.
If we understand our instincts, and consciously compensate for them, it doesn't have to be this way.
Fin/@Tattie good thread. I enjoyed that.
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@Tattie At the moment, the discussions on r/MCFC are showing a wide range of character and opinion. From “We’re doomed!” to “it will just get overturned on appeal due to expensive lawyers” to “what happens to the giant, respected accountancy firm who were involved” and everything in-between.
The difference is probably how long someone has been a fan - as a very old fan, I am on the side of inevitable doom.
@Tattie and to get back to men’s advantage, over on r/MCWFC, it’s “hang on, this is going to fuck the women’s team, even though they have nothing to do with any of this”.
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@Tattie As a bisexual, this checks out. There's a lot of pressure from both the red and blue teams to just "pick a side." Some do want to claim you for a particular side -- theirs because they think it's better, the one that your current (presumed-)partner would make you align with, etc. -- but a lot just want you to settle down onto either team so the world fits into their sense of it.
I've been bi my whole adult life, so 20 years of this meant transition was familiar to me in many ways!
@bright_helpings ooh I like this insight! Thanks!
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When we ask men, in the name of feminism, to call out other men, to demand fair treatment of women and people of minoritised gender, it's not a small ask.
We're asking them to go against instinct, against group loyalty and group thought.
We're asking them to stand against the coding they've been subject to all their lives, the unspoken agreement that they do not acknowledge that the competition was rigged for their team.
I'm not saying I forgive sexism as "natural". It's still dead wrong. But I'm acknowledging the internal struggle, and inviting men to do so as well. Knowing your own brain is part of the problem is half the battle.
3/@Tattie I don't think I ever made it explicit to myself like this, but I probably always knew that it felt more natural for me to be a feminist than most men because I never felt at home in the prevalent masculinity behavioral codings in the first place. I present as a regular dude & I'm cis, so guys are often surprised & yes, often see me as a category traitor.
