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@Natasha_Jay this is great, do you have a source / reference?
@moritzboth
Working on it! Regardless, it's spot on for me... -
@moritzboth
Working on it! Regardless, it's spot on for me...@Natasha_Jay I totally agree, that's why I'd like to know who said it this way first. Already searched for it, but it is probably not easy to find, the web is full of that quote
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@Natasha_Jay correction, 10 think theyβre good men because that first guy doesnβt think he did anything wrong
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@Natasha_Jay correction, 10 think theyβre good men because that first guy doesnβt think he did anything wrong
@3janeTA
Yeah
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@Natasha_Jay I admit to be in the silent group. Not just for that case, but about so many other facts where I feel I should stand up.
This is quite embarrassing to admit, but it's my confirm I'm a misanthrope: I just don't have a didactical example to show. I don't believe anymore in giving a better education to these people. -
@Natasha_Jay I admit to be in the silent group. Not just for that case, but about so many other facts where I feel I should stand up.
This is quite embarrassing to admit, but it's my confirm I'm a misanthrope: I just don't have a didactical example to show. I don't believe anymore in giving a better education to these people.@luc0x61 @Natasha_Jay I believe it's not so much about 'educating' the one male person but to support the women
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I've tried being 'The One' in the past.
It's expensive.
I've been side-lined, missed promotions and emptied rooms by just walking into them.
I've lost jobs, friends in high places who were never real friends.
And yes the females at work shunned me too. Every time.You are part of the 50% against the manosphere and have some backup. Try doing it alone with none.
Sorry.
Rant over.@ForgottenHero @Natasha_Jay
Sounds like you're doing good workQuick note though, being "against the manosphere" doesn't read quite right when you've just used the term "females" like a ferengi or a nature documentarian or a straight up manosphere chud
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@Natasha_Jay I've been thinking a lot about how racism works the same. It's really impressive how easy of a time people have pretending like discrimination isn't happening even though it's happening everywhere all the time. I feel like the system is upheld most by people who remain silent.
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@Natasha_Jay I admit to be in the silent group. Not just for that case, but about so many other facts where I feel I should stand up.
This is quite embarrassing to admit, but it's my confirm I'm a misanthrope: I just don't have a didactical example to show. I don't believe anymore in giving a better education to these people.@luc0x61 @Natasha_Jay
It's not working because you're not doing it tho -
This
@Natasha_Jay
I've been a woman in the room with two men, when one has referred to the other's pregnant wife so offensively that I would have thought it would have caused a major breach, and I was silent.It's hard to know what to say in the moment, when you're reeling from shock that someone thought that was an okay thing to say to anyone, much less a colleague or friend.
I don't believe any of the three of us in that conversation were "good guys". I do think the insulting guy thought he was being funny, and the other guy was his friend and took it in that spirit. And I felt like it was his role to speak out, since it was his wife and he would know better than I just how upset (or not) she'd be about it.
But since then, I've tried to be more prepared to speak out.
And speaking out has been a tremendous relief, even as it has lost me opportunities. It feels like putting the emotional work of coping with their words back on their shoulders, where it belongs.
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@Natasha_Jay I totally agree, that's why I'd like to know who said it this way first. Already searched for it, but it is probably not easy to find, the web is full of that quote
@moritzboth
Yeah. It resonated. As a trans woman I've been one of the four quiet ones in a past life.I sat there. So I know how true this is, and feel it in my bones.
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I've tried being 'The One' in the past.
It's expensive.
I've been side-lined, missed promotions and emptied rooms by just walking into them.
I've lost jobs, friends in high places who were never real friends.
And yes the females at work shunned me too. Every time.You are part of the 50% against the manosphere and have some backup. Try doing it alone with none.
Sorry.
Rant over.@ForgottenHero Speaking from the perspective of a bullying target, rather than a woman, which seems similar to me in many situations:
a bullying target often doesn't want somebody else to decide when and how to fight their fights. They might instead want the reassurance, that they can pick the fight that concerns them when they feel it is the right moment, and the others have _their_ back, instead of the bully's.Hope that's not too far off @Natasha_Jay
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@Natasha_Jay I totally agree, that's why I'd like to know who said it this way first. Already searched for it, but it is probably not easy to find, the web is full of that quote
@moritzboth @Natasha_Jay
Rhiannon Ingle, writing for Tyla attributes the quote to https://www.tiktok.com/@brookcore/video/7610160857284201742 .I don't know whether the journalist verified that it was written by this toktoker. I don't have an account, otherwise I'd reach out.
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@ForgottenHero @Natasha_Jay
Sounds like you're doing good workQuick note though, being "against the manosphere" doesn't read quite right when you've just used the term "females" like a ferengi or a nature documentarian or a straight up manosphere chud
I think you need to mansplain that to me.
Without the insult would be good.
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@Natasha_Jay And the manosphere is so upset about the idea of trans women, because they know we have the receipts. We have been around men when they thought there were only other men around. We know how much worse they are when they think there are no women in the room.
Some of us tried to push back on misogyny, and were told, βitβs a joke,β βdonβt get your panties in a twist,β or were βplayfullyβ threatened and insulted. Treated the way they treat women. And while the predators were doing this, a few of the others either chuckled along or were silent. Very occasionally, there would be one man who would agree that misogyny was unacceptable. Once a second had spoken up against the predator, the tide quickly turned. This was unfortunately not a frequency occurrence.
Men, if you arenβt actively tryjng to shut down misogyny every time you hear it, no matter the impact that pushback might have on you, then your silence will be seen as tacit acceptance by the other men. And however much you might think you are one of the βgood guys,β you will be furthering misogyny.
Good men speak up. Good men know it is not βjust a joke.β Good men donβt let other men demean women, whether or not they think there are women present.
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@Natasha_Jay
I've been a woman in the room with two men, when one has referred to the other's pregnant wife so offensively that I would have thought it would have caused a major breach, and I was silent.It's hard to know what to say in the moment, when you're reeling from shock that someone thought that was an okay thing to say to anyone, much less a colleague or friend.
I don't believe any of the three of us in that conversation were "good guys". I do think the insulting guy thought he was being funny, and the other guy was his friend and took it in that spirit. And I felt like it was his role to speak out, since it was his wife and he would know better than I just how upset (or not) she'd be about it.
But since then, I've tried to be more prepared to speak out.
And speaking out has been a tremendous relief, even as it has lost me opportunities. It feels like putting the emotional work of coping with their words back on their shoulders, where it belongs.
@Natasha_Jay @Robotistry the βactβ of silence is not a strong enough objection for the offensive individual to change their behavior. Even if thereβs no one supporting them in that situation they will just voice it again later hopeful of finding a receptive audience.
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@Natasha_Jay And the manosphere is so upset about the idea of trans women, because they know we have the receipts. We have been around men when they thought there were only other men around. We know how much worse they are when they think there are no women in the room.
Some of us tried to push back on misogyny, and were told, βitβs a joke,β βdonβt get your panties in a twist,β or were βplayfullyβ threatened and insulted. Treated the way they treat women. And while the predators were doing this, a few of the others either chuckled along or were silent. Very occasionally, there would be one man who would agree that misogyny was unacceptable. Once a second had spoken up against the predator, the tide quickly turned. This was unfortunately not a frequency occurrence.
Men, if you arenβt actively tryjng to shut down misogyny every time you hear it, no matter the impact that pushback might have on you, then your silence will be seen as tacit acceptance by the other men. And however much you might think you are one of the βgood guys,β you will be furthering misogyny.
Good men speak up. Good men know it is not βjust a joke.β Good men donβt let other men demean women, whether or not they think there are women present.
@Natasha_Jay @Serena a quick question such as - would you be willing to say this if the woman (and her husband?) was standing here? May help lower the willingness to insult and helps show the cowardice of the comment to the others in the room.
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@Natasha_Jay What practical things can we do to be better? I'm after specifics.
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bears
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@Natasha_Jay the woman concludes all men are rapists and posts it on social media. A story as old as time .
