Nice method
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@benroyce not so fast - there was a chance to teach him something new.
The way you propose builds a barriers.
Cheers Mate.
What i dislike about that is that it shifts responsibility. We can't be responsible for educating bigots. Rising or falling depending upon how bigoted someone is should be enough lesson and personal motivation. It's not hard. It's not like culture and society isn't screaming the lesson constantly. So some will learn, some won't. If some won't: oh well
Again, why do we have the job of doing someone else's fundamental social responsibility for them. It's a fool's errand.
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@benroyce not just tech bro! This happened to me a couple of months ago, and it was a young guy we were interviewing, and really right on/progressive, too, in terms of what he was saying. He directed everything we all asked at my male colleague, who is undeniably lovely but in hierarchical terms was the most junior member of our panel.
@Ludo oof
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@benroyce I lived in a muslim community. Women in this community don't like men to be looking at them, which made me hesitant to maintain eye contact with women in general. I'm also bad with eye contact, which happens with people with ASD.
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@benroyce I just had to follow you because of your post, I never worked in tech, but this is awesome!
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@benroyce I lived in a muslim community. Women in this community don't like men to be looking at them, which made me hesitant to maintain eye contact with women in general. I'm also bad with eye contact, which happens with people with ASD.
I think there's a difference between unwanted eye contact in purely social situations and eye contact in an employment scenario. I understand the cultural differences but I don't think they overrule the stricter hierarchy of a work environment. Someone should look at a boss, or interviewer, a certain way that has nothing to do with their gender or their culture. They should just see "boss" or "interviewer", woman or man doesn't matter
This is strictly in the employment context
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@benroyce yeah, totally unconscious 🫣 sweet lad, too. He never asked for feedback, which is a pity because he can't address it if no one gets to tell him about it. Thing is many women don't even notice, it happens so frequently. Our lovely male colleague on the panel hadn't noticed...and he was off to the side so it was painfully obvious
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@benroyce harder to do remote, but I have failed quite a few people for this.
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@benroyce I just had to follow you because of your post, I never worked in tech, but this is awesome!
@Tracy_Murray2000 followed back
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@benroyce harder to do remote, but I have failed quite a few people for this.
@RichiH that is harder because they're just looking in the camera. But other cues like whose questions they engage with and how long and the overall differential in their emotional tenor can still be gauged
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What i dislike about that is that it shifts responsibility. We can't be responsible for educating bigots. Rising or falling depending upon how bigoted someone is should be enough lesson and personal motivation. It's not hard. It's not like culture and society isn't screaming the lesson constantly. So some will learn, some won't. If some won't: oh well
Again, why do we have the job of doing someone else's fundamental social responsibility for them. It's a fool's errand.
because it might not be bigotry, but simply a culture clash. if you are just ambushing the candidate with that kind of setup, you could just as easily say you are ruling out people raised in a strong patriarchic culture too. you _might_ be inclined to just say "good to rule that out" but that's its own discrimination against origin.
...now, if the interview guidance given to the candidate in advance says something like "we conduct interviews in panels and the candidate is expected to address their answer to the person posing the question" then what I said above doesn't apply.
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because it might not be bigotry, but simply a culture clash. if you are just ambushing the candidate with that kind of setup, you could just as easily say you are ruling out people raised in a strong patriarchic culture too. you _might_ be inclined to just say "good to rule that out" but that's its own discrimination against origin.
...now, if the interview guidance given to the candidate in advance says something like "we conduct interviews in panels and the candidate is expected to address their answer to the person posing the question" then what I said above doesn't apply.
"you could just as easily say you are ruling out people raised in a strong patriarchic culture too"
that's reframing the essential problem as if what you just described is something totally different
misogyny is misogyny
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@benroyce oh dear. I had cringe flashbacks from when my landlord would only talk handywork stuff to me (a Smol Twink
) when my flatmate (Slightly taller woman) was very adamantly bearing said handywork tools in her hands and talking to him. It was. So very weird until we understood exactly what was going on.
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"you could just as easily say you are ruling out people raised in a strong patriarchic culture too"
that's reframing the essential problem as if what you just described is something totally different
misogyny is misogyny
there really is a difference between an asshole American techbro who was gung-ho about gamergate, and some guy from an ME or African or SE Asian country who managed to get the education necessary to work in a tech job in the US or EU and who has real problems addressing women directly. that difference is actually codified legally; you can decline to hire someone who's rude but not discriminate on the basis of national origin.
it's late so that's all I will say in response, other than cute as the OP was, it's not always as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. if only that were so
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It totally works for weeding out the bigots, too.
(If the office festooned with pride flags wasn't going to be enough of a clue...)
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@benroyce not just techbros, works across job functions in my experience
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there really is a difference between an asshole American techbro who was gung-ho about gamergate, and some guy from an ME or African or SE Asian country who managed to get the education necessary to work in a tech job in the US or EU and who has real problems addressing women directly. that difference is actually codified legally; you can decline to hire someone who's rude but not discriminate on the basis of national origin.
it's late so that's all I will say in response, other than cute as the OP was, it's not always as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. if only that were so
i think anyone from any culture can understand hierarchy in employment situations, and what you're saying seems rather patronizing to people from other cultures. you're saying they are unable to understand the power dynamic of an interview scenario
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i think anyone from any culture can understand hierarchy in employment situations, and what you're saying seems rather patronizing to people from other cultures. you're saying they are unable to understand the power dynamic of an interview scenario
we have to teach them before examination.
But you are right.
Thanx a lot for expirience exchange.
Cheers, mate!
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your average person of average intelligence can understand social context and code switch easily
how we act around each other, gender related or not, is very different in church/mosque/temple, vs the home, vs the street, vs the coffee shop, vs employment scenario, etc
how a person acts in their home country vs adopted country is all code switching too
anyone can grasp context and expectations instantly
"we have to teach them" seems condescending to me
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@RichiH that is harder because they're just looking in the camera. But other cues like whose questions they engage with and how long and the overall differential in their emotional tenor can still be gauged
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there really is a difference between an asshole American techbro who was gung-ho about gamergate, and some guy from an ME or African or SE Asian country who managed to get the education necessary to work in a tech job in the US or EU and who has real problems addressing women directly. that difference is actually codified legally; you can decline to hire someone who's rude but not discriminate on the basis of national origin.
it's late so that's all I will say in response, other than cute as the OP was, it's not always as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. if only that were so
This is about 'culture fit' isn't it.
Like, if that culture is yt cis dude sports huel bro-down last in the office wins, then that's the way it is and you have to fit in.
But if the culture is queer/trans positive syndicalist caring-responsibility and MH aware diversity forward then that's dangerous and discriminatory?
No. Tech interviews are nice, but what you really want to do is avoid dickheads who'll break a working team.
-we used to have this as a criterion (in Finance) 15 years ago, if we had enough interviewers to do 2:1 (any gender mix)