my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
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@mweiss he's essentially expanded his scope of "family and friends" -- you'd probably help out a friend with moving furniture and they'd help you with some bonus stuff they picked up at the Costco and you wouldn't call it "bartering" you would just be friends helping each other out. He's using the medium of exchange to help build the *friendships* and that's legit. But what's happening is not an exchange of goods/services but rather a building of community. That's why it expanded.
@mweiss the distinction is important because if you actually introduced money into this situation, it would tarnish it. Because it would monetize the friendships that are developing.
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@susankayequinn @eestileib id say communism and socialism have heavy associations of a state coming in and taking over these functions, which sucks, always has sucked, and always will suck
not to say there arent people who mean something different when they say those words, something more like mutual aid or anarchy, but you can't just wish 100 years of historical examples away
"anarchism" has its own history as well
I see the terms all being thrown around equivalently as scare words and that's their main function, divorced actually from any history (the people using them are often relying on mythologizing of history anyway)
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@mweiss I'm not anti-money and bartering is very much a small scale thing. I wouldn't even call what they're doing here "bartering" -- we have a poverty of vocabulary for describing this sort of thing because capitalism wants us to monetize everything (for many reasons but mostly control).
I would call this a "gifting economy" -- they're doing things for each other without "payment" but calling it a "barter" so they can discharge the onus we put on gifting having to be reciprocal/monetized.
@susankayequinn @mweiss maybe i would call it the gift economy or community mutual aid?
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now imagine this happening everywhere... imagine the mindset shift it would create... imagine how radically it would improve people's lives, all while still existing side-by-side with capitalism (for now). Imagine the pressures it would put on a system that's brutal and exploitive when they can actually get their needs met outside of that system.
The two women writing under the joint pen name J. K. Gibson-Graham have built a whole scholarly research network around basically this idea. Basically, many worlds are possible, and better ones already exist out there right now!
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@susankayequinn @mweiss maybe i would call it the gift economy or community mutual aid?
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The two women writing under the joint pen name J. K. Gibson-Graham have built a whole scholarly research network around basically this idea. Basically, many worlds are possible, and better ones already exist out there right now!
@MichaelTBacon oh this looks great! Thank you for sharing.
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now imagine this happening everywhere... imagine the mindset shift it would create... imagine how radically it would improve people's lives, all while still existing side-by-side with capitalism (for now). Imagine the pressures it would put on a system that's brutal and exploitive when they can actually get their needs met outside of that system.
Seems like a good time for me to recommend (again) the Serviceberry (gift economies) and Caliban and the Witch (capitalist enclosure of women's bodies and destruction of communal means of support).
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn this is wholesome and good and very mutual aid and all those great things, but people en masse being forced into an informal barter economy due to economic pressure has historically been a sign of collapse. -
@susankayequinn this is wholesome and good and very mutual aid and all those great things, but people en masse being forced into an informal barter economy due to economic pressure has historically been a sign of collapse.
@rowb1t I think everyone is very aware that we're in a prolonged collapse. If they weren't and this is the sign post that tells them that, great!
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@mweiss I'm not anti-money and bartering is very much a small scale thing. I wouldn't even call what they're doing here "bartering" -- we have a poverty of vocabulary for describing this sort of thing because capitalism wants us to monetize everything (for many reasons but mostly control).
I would call this a "gifting economy" -- they're doing things for each other without "payment" but calling it a "barter" so they can discharge the onus we put on gifting having to be reciprocal/monetized.
@susankayequinn I'm not anti-money either, and I hope I didn't give the impression I thought you were.
There's also absolutely nothing wrong with "barter". But, as you noted, if there's no explicit quid pro quo it's not really barter so much as a localized form of socialism (also a fine word). Sure, "gifting economy" is a fine term, too.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn source (with more discussion in the comments): https://old.reddit.com/r/povertyfinance/comments/1sma3r9/bartering_with_my_neighbors_literally_saved_my/
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@mweiss the distinction is important because if you actually introduced money into this situation, it would tarnish it. Because it would monetize the friendships that are developing.
@susankayequinn it doesn't need money or formal accounting, but all friendships are economic in nature at their core. That's not a bad thing, either. If you're always giving to someone who is always taking, that's not a friendship. And many friendships fade over time because the implicit economics no longer make sense for the participants.
We've become accustomed to thinking of economics in terms of fiat currency, but fiat is merely one mechanism by which to measure. And it's "icky" in friendships because it's so quantitative rather than qualitative, and that does, as you said, tarnish the relationship. Soft accounting is more personal.
Basically, a lot of words to say "I agree", but more to say *why* I agree.
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@susankayequinn @midnite ooh! Something interesting to read. Thank you for the recommendation.
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@MichaelTBacon oh this looks great! Thank you for sharing.
@susankayequinn Take Back the Economy! has been out a while so it's a little dated but it's still a great, accessible overview to the theory body.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn
This sort of thing is more terrifying to capitalists and the politicians who serve them than any horror movie. -
@susankayequinn it doesn't need money or formal accounting, but all friendships are economic in nature at their core. That's not a bad thing, either. If you're always giving to someone who is always taking, that's not a friendship. And many friendships fade over time because the implicit economics no longer make sense for the participants.
We've become accustomed to thinking of economics in terms of fiat currency, but fiat is merely one mechanism by which to measure. And it's "icky" in friendships because it's so quantitative rather than qualitative, and that does, as you said, tarnish the relationship. Soft accounting is more personal.
Basically, a lot of words to say "I agree", but more to say *why* I agree.
@mweiss I'm honestly horrified by the idea that "all friendships are economic in nature" -- sounds like financialization and capitalism leaking like an oil spill into every corner of human interaction.
I would be curious to see if your thoughts about this change after reading Serviceberry.
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@mweiss I'm honestly horrified by the idea that "all friendships are economic in nature" -- sounds like financialization and capitalism leaking like an oil spill into every corner of human interaction.
I would be curious to see if your thoughts about this change after reading Serviceberry.
@susankayequinn I completely understand why you're horrified. It's that feeling of "economics = capitalism", which itself may well be that sense of capitalism being everywhere (as you described). But I promise there's more to economics than capitalism.
It's why I talked about soft accounting. We all do it, because we all have limited time and energy and we aim to spend them on things that make us feel good. That's not capitalism, nor is it formal accounting.
That said, perhaps my opinion will change. I'll keep an open mind.
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@susankayequinn I completely understand why you're horrified. It's that feeling of "economics = capitalism", which itself may well be that sense of capitalism being everywhere (as you described). But I promise there's more to economics than capitalism.
It's why I talked about soft accounting. We all do it, because we all have limited time and energy and we aim to spend them on things that make us feel good. That's not capitalism, nor is it formal accounting.
That said, perhaps my opinion will change. I'll keep an open mind.
@mweiss I'm well aware that economics does not equal capitalism, but I'm also very aware of how the language of capitalism is insidious. The metaphors we use illuminate more than we think.
I'm reading Caliban and the Witch: how capitalism used the violence of witch burnings to enclose women's bodies and take reproductive labor *out* of what we consider "the economy"... another reading suggestion more likely to tell you about my perspective than perhaps change yours
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https://wandering.shop/@susankayequinn/116421671475505952 -
my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn Good to see people cutting out the middle man, being social, and helping each other out.
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"anarchism" has its own history as well
I see the terms all being thrown around equivalently as scare words and that's their main function, divorced actually from any history (the people using them are often relying on mythologizing of history anyway)
@susankayequinn @eestileib anarchists havent been the ones betraying communists, arresting and executing them, and forming authoritarian dictatorships in the name of the people
