I would like to escape from systemd.
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@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
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@cocaine_owlbear Great to hear! Are you using it as a personal computer with a desktop environment and such? I've tried it in a CI and I'm starting to consider it a strong contender for a server, but I had never really thought it was useful as a personal computer too? But maybe it is?
I like Norway!
Devuan sadly seems to not be a great project ideologically speaking as pointed out by someone in the comments. I'd also like something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions.
@marcusxms I'm not currently running it, but it does make an excellent desktop OS. While it is more designed with servers in mind, its lightness and minimalism translate to fast startups and excellent responsiveness in desktops. I've run Gnome, Plasma, and XFCE desktops on it, all fast and surprisingly stable.
I would like to give it another go and try a Niri/QuickShell setup some time, but I'm running weird stuff on my laptop rn.
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@marcusxms I'm not currently running it, but it does make an excellent desktop OS. While it is more designed with servers in mind, its lightness and minimalism translate to fast startups and excellent responsiveness in desktops. I've run Gnome, Plasma, and XFCE desktops on it, all fast and surprisingly stable.
I would like to give it another go and try a Niri/QuickShell setup some time, but I'm running weird stuff on my laptop rn.
@cocaine_owlbear Curiously enough I'd very likely precisely run Niri and QuickShell in it.
I wish that QuickShell had builtin Niri support, so one doesn't have to set it all up manually. But I read the main dev is now open to adding official Niri support, so that's great.
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@RootMoose Alright, that's great to hear! It being good for desktop is news to me!
I used to run FreeBSD on a server and I had a good impression of it. I think I mostly switched away just to try something else, which has frequently been the reason, not always with good results.
@marcusxms Alpine doesn't get enough mention as a desktop client. It has full featured versions of all the standard desktops in the repos and they are easily installed using the setup-desktop script. I'm running Plasma and LXQt these days but have run Gnome in the past.
We'll see what happens as Gnome gets more and more reliant on systemd and if teams keep making the effort to create work arounds.
At least KDE has made a statement that they have no intentions of abandoning non-systemd distributions and also it is now considered "the standard" desktop for FreeBSD so that bodes well for continued Plasma utility in non-systemd distributions... I guess.
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@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
@benjaminlj I'm also using podman but that's currently with compose, both because I prefer how it works to docker, and because docker is getting too dominant and perhaps getting increasingly more commercial I don't know?
Haven't tried quadlets, I guess they're more lightweight(?) which is good. From what I understand the podman team is mostly focused on running in kubernetes clusters but I would like to reduce complexity in my setups and use more lightweight solutions, not the opposite.
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@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
@benjaminlj I don't know how they plan to make restrictions based on age either. I guess it's more broadly about identifying users and their activities online, perhaps.
Of course that PR doesn't do anything like that, but if they eagerly adopt it they seem far from where my values are and it makes me wary of what else they might do. Besides approving/making changes to a core part of my system with LLMs.
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@benjaminlj I'm also using podman but that's currently with compose, both because I prefer how it works to docker, and because docker is getting too dominant and perhaps getting increasingly more commercial I don't know?
Haven't tried quadlets, I guess they're more lightweight(?) which is good. From what I understand the podman team is mostly focused on running in kubernetes clusters but I would like to reduce complexity in my setups and use more lightweight solutions, not the opposite.
@marcusxms not sure if it's more lightweight - it's just another specification of which containers should run in which order. Very much like compose, but less readable.
The main advantages to as I see it is that if a container is specified to run systemd ensures it is running. That way you don't have to run "compose up" commands from time to time when stuff goes down. Also the logs are automatically picked up by journald, which I think is cool.
That's why I think it would be a good match for Folkeføderation. That, and that it's still a lot simpler than kubernetes
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@benjaminlj I don't know how they plan to make restrictions based on age either. I guess it's more broadly about identifying users and their activities online, perhaps.
Of course that PR doesn't do anything like that, but if they eagerly adopt it they seem far from where my values are and it makes me wary of what else they might do. Besides approving/making changes to a core part of my system with LLMs.
@marcusxms right. I understand your suspensions.
One thought though: it's gotten quite a backlash after this PR. Do you think people will fork systemd, drop the commit and build distros like Debian using that fork?
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@cocaine_owlbear Curiously enough I'd very likely precisely run Niri and QuickShell in it.
I wish that QuickShell had builtin Niri support, so one doesn't have to set it all up manually. But I read the main dev is now open to adding official Niri support, so that's great.
@marcusxms Well, once you get it set up, you'll have your dot files, so that's something.
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@kingocounty I've tried Alpine in a CI and I was just starting to consider that as a good contender for my server but didn't actually consider it for a good solution for a personal computer with as a daily driver, running a normal desktop with vms, possibly games and such. But maybe it's just fine for that?
IRC is great, and GitLab beats GitHub even though they're racing down the hill fast, shitting on their employees and eagerly promoting LLMs: https://about.gitlab.com/blog/gitlab-act-2/
@marcusxms It runs musl instead of glibc so you'll have to use flatpak for some stuff like steam, but I find it very usable as a daily driver. There's a surprising amount of stuff packaged for it.
That's sad to hear about Gitlab. I'm glad Codeberg exits and I'm happy to see more projects moving to it.
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@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
@marcusxms actually I've been considering where to go after Bluefin went all in on AI.
https://nxos.org/ might be a way to go based on your posts and what I've seen from the website so far.
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@marcusxms right. I understand your suspensions.
One thought though: it's gotten quite a backlash after this PR. Do you think people will fork systemd, drop the commit and build distros like Debian using that fork?
@benjaminlj @marcusxms as far as I can see systemd want to be another operatibg system, trying to do eeeeeeeverything
and often re-implementing services "wrong". Wrong here is first replacing mature daemons developed over many years, to include less features and new errors. Then deciding for aaaalllll, this is how it works now deal with it. I hate systemd
In the older Unix systems you could replace the parts much more easily, now we have this borg like " component" meddling with soo many parts
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@benjaminlj @marcusxms as far as I can see systemd want to be another operatibg system, trying to do eeeeeeeverything
and often re-implementing services "wrong". Wrong here is first replacing mature daemons developed over many years, to include less features and new errors. Then deciding for aaaalllll, this is how it works now deal with it. I hate systemd
In the older Unix systems you could replace the parts much more easily, now we have this borg like " component" meddling with soo many parts
@kramse @marcusxms well that makes sense. It's a shame that it's so widely used then. Most of the distros I can find without systemd are quite niche. I'm quite disappointed, because I was really starting to enjoy the bootc-based paradigm in Bluefin, where upgrading your system is just downloading a new image and then booting into that. And also podman quadlets which I was planning to use in #Folkeføderation. I don't really see any good alternatives except perhaps good old docker/podman compose. But it's not really the same...
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@fedward @IzzyChambers Thanks, I've never tried Gentoo so that could be fun, but I did try compiling everything on FreeBSD once and I think I might get tired of it because I'd like to update often, so I was hoping for pre-compiled packages to also be an option.
Chimera I hadn't looked at yet, thanks for the tip!
@marcusxms @fedward @IzzyChambers OpenBSD is fun, but - different expectations on hardware support
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@kramse @marcusxms well that makes sense. It's a shame that it's so widely used then. Most of the distros I can find without systemd are quite niche. I'm quite disappointed, because I was really starting to enjoy the bootc-based paradigm in Bluefin, where upgrading your system is just downloading a new image and then booting into that. And also podman quadlets which I was planning to use in #Folkeføderation. I don't really see any good alternatives except perhaps good old docker/podman compose. But it's not really the same...
By the way @marcusxms - have you seen https://nosystemd.org/?
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@marcusxms Well, once you get it set up, you'll have your dot files, so that's something.
@cocaine_owlbear True, I do have a Niri config but not yet with QuickShell.
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@marcusxms It runs musl instead of glibc so you'll have to use flatpak for some stuff like steam, but I find it very usable as a daily driver. There's a surprising amount of stuff packaged for it.
That's sad to hear about Gitlab. I'm glad Codeberg exits and I'm happy to see more projects moving to it.
@kingocounty Alright, that's good to know! Certainly beginning to lean the most towards that or Chimera.
Yes I'm also glad Codeberg exists and is growing too, and that more and more are self hosting their git forges.
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@marcusxms not sure if it's more lightweight - it's just another specification of which containers should run in which order. Very much like compose, but less readable.
The main advantages to as I see it is that if a container is specified to run systemd ensures it is running. That way you don't have to run "compose up" commands from time to time when stuff goes down. Also the logs are automatically picked up by journald, which I think is cool.
That's why I think it would be a good match for Folkeføderation. That, and that it's still a lot simpler than kubernetes
@benjaminlj Ah alright, I assumed that podman/docker handled restarts itself when `restart: always` was set, but then again I have experienced containers suddenly remaining stopped. It seems the `podman-restart` service should be enabled so maybe that's what I was missing.
Yes!
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By the way @marcusxms - have you seen https://nosystemd.org/?
@benjaminlj Yes, seems like a good overview.
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@kramse @marcusxms well that makes sense. It's a shame that it's so widely used then. Most of the distros I can find without systemd are quite niche. I'm quite disappointed, because I was really starting to enjoy the bootc-based paradigm in Bluefin, where upgrading your system is just downloading a new image and then booting into that. And also podman quadlets which I was planning to use in #Folkeføderation. I don't really see any good alternatives except perhaps good old docker/podman compose. But it's not really the same...
@benjaminlj @kramse Don't really know an alternative like Bluefin but I also didn't look for it much. Haven't tried that paradigm yet. If NixOS wasn't heavily systemd dependent I might've considered that, too.
The options I'm considering the most currently, after the responses here, are probably Alpine and Chimera. Chimera even has a policy against LLMs for contributions: https://chimera-linux.org/community/ and I like that they have defined project goals: https://chimera-linux.org/about/
