Platner and The Purity Trap
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@badtux I am not going to engage on a hypothetical you pulled out of your ass.
Right now we have a candidate who has actively harmed women and was a war criminal. I am not going to support a candidate like this. If the Democrats want my financial support, campaign assistance or vote, they will have to not nominate sexists, racists, bigots, homophobes, war criminals, etc.
It's a pretty low f'ing bar.
And again, I did the actual work, including candidate recruitment for years.
@reflex LBJ is not a hypothetical. He was a pretty nasty guy. He was a liar and racist and blackailer. Yet the choice was between LBJ and Barry Goldwater and... you're seriously suggesting we should have elected Goldwater instead because LBJ would have never passed your purity filters?
Politics is the art of the possible. All that demanding purity accomplishes is failure. LBJ despite not passing your purity test did more for civil rights than any modern President.
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@reflex LBJ is not a hypothetical. He was a pretty nasty guy. He was a liar and racist and blackailer. Yet the choice was between LBJ and Barry Goldwater and... you're seriously suggesting we should have elected Goldwater instead because LBJ would have never passed your purity filters?
Politics is the art of the possible. All that demanding purity accomplishes is failure. LBJ despite not passing your purity test did more for civil rights than any modern President.
@badtux As I pointed out, vetting candidates and running ones who treated people well actually was successful in WA state where I was a chair for years. It led to the greatest expansion of Dem control in the united states between 2017 and 2021.
So no, doing the right thing is not unrealistic and it leads to great success.
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@badtux As I pointed out, vetting candidates and running ones who treated people well actually was successful in WA state where I was a chair for years. It led to the greatest expansion of Dem control in the united states between 2017 and 2021.
So no, doing the right thing is not unrealistic and it leads to great success.
@reflex Yes, you want the best candidate to get out of the primaries into the general election. But demanding purity of the guy who won the primaries is just shooting your own cause in the foot as well as demonstrating contempt for the voters who voted for him in the primaries. In the end politics is the art of the practical.
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@reflex Yes, you want the best candidate to get out of the primaries into the general election. But demanding purity of the guy who won the primaries is just shooting your own cause in the foot as well as demonstrating contempt for the voters who voted for him in the primaries. In the end politics is the art of the practical.
@badtux Again, we declined to endorse or support candidates who had known problems in WA state. We lost some elections as a result. However it made our endorsement meaningful to voters *and* the organizations who recruit and train candidates.
In less than five years the quality of candidates and the effectiveness of campaigns had increased to the degree that we took over most of the state.
You keep saying this as though this is the last election ever. It's not.
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Platner and The Purity Trap
Feel like these last few days in Maine can be a teachable moment. What we are seeing play out is political information warfare that could be branded a "purity trap".
Purity trap tactics have their roots in the swift boating of John Kerry and the destruction of Al Franken. Purity traps were run effectively against 'Genocide' Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
So, let's talk about 'purity traps'...
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No. A purity trap is expecting candidates to be perfect.
You are talking about someone who literally got a nazi tattoo and then lied about it.
If there had been no alternative and he was the best available, then yes, people should support him as being better than someone who was proud of being a nazi, but that wasn't the case here.
There was an already vetted candidate that has proven they can win in Maine, who doesn't have a nazi tattoo and wasn't overly
1/
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No. A purity trap is expecting candidates to be perfect.
You are talking about someone who literally got a nazi tattoo and then lied about it.
If there had been no alternative and he was the best available, then yes, people should support him as being better than someone who was proud of being a nazi, but that wasn't the case here.
There was an already vetted candidate that has proven they can win in Maine, who doesn't have a nazi tattoo and wasn't overly
1/
aggressive to people in their past and never lied about nor understanding the meaning of something they bragged about knowing.
The ONLY thing that could be construed as a negative about Mills, is that she is a woman and way too many Americans have proven they dont like supporting women, no matter how qualified.
But hey, you do you and support the nazi lover...
2/2
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aggressive to people in their past and never lied about nor understanding the meaning of something they bragged about knowing.
The ONLY thing that could be construed as a negative about Mills, is that she is a woman and way too many Americans have proven they dont like supporting women, no matter how qualified.
But hey, you do you and support the nazi lover...
2/2
@crinstamcamp @mastodonmigration this has been a very enlightening thread. Thanks. Lots to think about here. I appreciate all of you
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Platner and The Purity Trap
Feel like these last few days in Maine can be a teachable moment. What we are seeing play out is political information warfare that could be branded a "purity trap".
Purity trap tactics have their roots in the swift boating of John Kerry and the destruction of Al Franken. Purity traps were run effectively against 'Genocide' Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
So, let's talk about 'purity traps'...
1/
"swift boating of John Kerry and the destruction of Al Franken."
these are not comparable. Al Franken quit not because of one incident, but because he had more than 20 years of recorded questionable behavior. I used to listen to his radio show.
I get people wanting to win elections. But first, you have to figure out how they fucked with the algorithms to win the last one: by channeling disinformation to key voters instead of throwing women under the bus.
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"swift boating of John Kerry and the destruction of Al Franken."
these are not comparable. Al Franken quit not because of one incident, but because he had more than 20 years of recorded questionable behavior. I used to listen to his radio show.
I get people wanting to win elections. But first, you have to figure out how they fucked with the algorithms to win the last one: by channeling disinformation to key voters instead of throwing women under the bus.
They are not the same, but they are both examples of purity traps.
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Platner and The Purity Trap
Feel like these last few days in Maine can be a teachable moment. What we are seeing play out is political information warfare that could be branded a "purity trap".
Purity trap tactics have their roots in the swift boating of John Kerry and the destruction of Al Franken. Purity traps were run effectively against 'Genocide' Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
So, let's talk about 'purity traps'...
1/
@mastodonmigration this isn't a new debate, here is Glenn Greenwald talking about the problem with never having red lines, and not having supporting a genocide as a red line is fairly extreme.
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@mastodonmigration this isn't a new debate, here is Glenn Greenwald talking about the problem with never having red lines, and not having supporting a genocide as a red line is fairly extreme.
Glenn Greenwald is the perfect information ops warrior to unleash when you are running a purity trap. He's made a career of it.
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Glenn Greenwald is the perfect information ops warrior to unleash when you are running a purity trap. He's made a career of it.
@mastodonmigration information ops == well reasoned and argued points? That's a trap I'm going to fall for every time.
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@mastodonmigration information ops == well reasoned and argued points? That's a trap I'm going to fall for every time.
Just be aware of the political stakes.
Like in this case it is control of the Senate, which might be our last chance to save democracy. So on the one side is electing a guy with some bad things in his past and the other you, your children and grandchildren living under a totalitarian regime for the rest of your lives. Ask the survivors in Gaza how they now feel about the Genocide Joe stuff. Its an imperfect world and sometimes the lesser of two evils is a lot less evil.
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Purity Trap (cont)
Once the purity trap has been established, nothing else matters for those who have been successfully captured. For instance, it does not matter that the people in Gaza would be much worse off under a GOP administration, Biden's support for Israel was disqualifying.
Once a purity trap has been sprung you will hear statements like, "I could never vote for..." said person.
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@mastodonmigration USAmericans whining about how opposing infinite genocide forever is a "purity trap" tactic will truly be the reason that the world experiences infinite genocide forever.
Your point about purity trap politics does a tailspin the moment you start comparing "infinite genocide forever" Biden with "hey maybe we shouldn't be doing genocide at all" Platner. It's clear that you're not interested in purity, you're interested in the status quo. How can you possibly pretend that Biden was a harm reduction choice that got scuppered by a "purity trap"? He objectively wasn't.
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Just be aware of the political stakes.
Like in this case it is control of the Senate, which might be our last chance to save democracy. So on the one side is electing a guy with some bad things in his past and the other you, your children and grandchildren living under a totalitarian regime for the rest of your lives. Ask the survivors in Gaza how they now feel about the Genocide Joe stuff. Its an imperfect world and sometimes the lesser of two evils is a lot less evil.
@mastodonmigration we are all aware of the stakes, and so are the Democrats who are ignoring their own political analysis, and nominating and supporting terrible candidates. They are the ones who killed the Bernie campaign and then asked everyone to vote for the lesser evil of Hillary Clinton.
https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-robbed-sanders-dnc-brazile-699421
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@mastodonmigration USAmericans whining about how opposing infinite genocide forever is a "purity trap" tactic will truly be the reason that the world experiences infinite genocide forever.
Your point about purity trap politics does a tailspin the moment you start comparing "infinite genocide forever" Biden with "hey maybe we shouldn't be doing genocide at all" Platner. It's clear that you're not interested in purity, you're interested in the status quo. How can you possibly pretend that Biden was a harm reduction choice that got scuppered by a "purity trap"? He objectively wasn't.
This logic has killed an awful lot more of the people you profess to support. Biden was awful on Gaza, and this administration has been an unimaginable catastrophe.
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This logic has killed an awful lot more of the people you profess to support. Biden was awful on Gaza, and this administration has been an unimaginable catastrophe.
@mastodonmigration Biden is one of the main people who gave you this current administration. It's not purity trap politics to recognize that. He literally campaigned on "going back to normal", by which he meant "the moment before Trump got elected".
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@mastodonmigration we are all aware of the stakes, and so are the Democrats who are ignoring their own political analysis, and nominating and supporting terrible candidates. They are the ones who killed the Bernie campaign and then asked everyone to vote for the lesser evil of Hillary Clinton.
https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-robbed-sanders-dnc-brazile-699421
And yet the Democrat's terrible candidates are infinitely better than the GOP fascists. What are we even talking about? In what world is losing to the fascists a better outcome?
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@mastodonmigration Biden is one of the main people who gave you this current administration. It's not purity trap politics to recognize that. He literally campaigned on "going back to normal", by which he meant "the moment before Trump got elected".
@mastodonmigration if your political system and beliefs can be reduced to "we should stay at the Infinite Genocide stage for the rest of time so that we don't one day escalate to the Infinite Genocide Plus stage" then you shouldn't have a political system.
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And yet the Democrat's terrible candidates are infinitely better than the GOP fascists. What are we even talking about? In what world is losing to the fascists a better outcome?
@mastodonmigration I agree, but who should we be blaming here? The voters who can't bring themselves to vote for someone actively aiding and abetting a genocide or the political party whose whole full time job is to be professional politicians and win elections?
