Platner and The Purity Trap
-
@mastodonmigration this isn't a new debate, here is Glenn Greenwald talking about the problem with never having red lines, and not having supporting a genocide as a red line is fairly extreme.
Glenn Greenwald is the perfect information ops warrior to unleash when you are running a purity trap. He's made a career of it.
-
Glenn Greenwald is the perfect information ops warrior to unleash when you are running a purity trap. He's made a career of it.
@mastodonmigration information ops == well reasoned and argued points? That's a trap I'm going to fall for every time.
-
@mastodonmigration information ops == well reasoned and argued points? That's a trap I'm going to fall for every time.
Just be aware of the political stakes.
Like in this case it is control of the Senate, which might be our last chance to save democracy. So on the one side is electing a guy with some bad things in his past and the other you, your children and grandchildren living under a totalitarian regime for the rest of your lives. Ask the survivors in Gaza how they now feel about the Genocide Joe stuff. Its an imperfect world and sometimes the lesser of two evils is a lot less evil.
-
Purity Trap (cont)
Once the purity trap has been established, nothing else matters for those who have been successfully captured. For instance, it does not matter that the people in Gaza would be much worse off under a GOP administration, Biden's support for Israel was disqualifying.
Once a purity trap has been sprung you will hear statements like, "I could never vote for..." said person.
4/
@mastodonmigration USAmericans whining about how opposing infinite genocide forever is a "purity trap" tactic will truly be the reason that the world experiences infinite genocide forever.
Your point about purity trap politics does a tailspin the moment you start comparing "infinite genocide forever" Biden with "hey maybe we shouldn't be doing genocide at all" Platner. It's clear that you're not interested in purity, you're interested in the status quo. How can you possibly pretend that Biden was a harm reduction choice that got scuppered by a "purity trap"? He objectively wasn't.
-
Just be aware of the political stakes.
Like in this case it is control of the Senate, which might be our last chance to save democracy. So on the one side is electing a guy with some bad things in his past and the other you, your children and grandchildren living under a totalitarian regime for the rest of your lives. Ask the survivors in Gaza how they now feel about the Genocide Joe stuff. Its an imperfect world and sometimes the lesser of two evils is a lot less evil.
@mastodonmigration we are all aware of the stakes, and so are the Democrats who are ignoring their own political analysis, and nominating and supporting terrible candidates. They are the ones who killed the Bernie campaign and then asked everyone to vote for the lesser evil of Hillary Clinton.
https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-robbed-sanders-dnc-brazile-699421
-
@mastodonmigration USAmericans whining about how opposing infinite genocide forever is a "purity trap" tactic will truly be the reason that the world experiences infinite genocide forever.
Your point about purity trap politics does a tailspin the moment you start comparing "infinite genocide forever" Biden with "hey maybe we shouldn't be doing genocide at all" Platner. It's clear that you're not interested in purity, you're interested in the status quo. How can you possibly pretend that Biden was a harm reduction choice that got scuppered by a "purity trap"? He objectively wasn't.
This logic has killed an awful lot more of the people you profess to support. Biden was awful on Gaza, and this administration has been an unimaginable catastrophe.
-
This logic has killed an awful lot more of the people you profess to support. Biden was awful on Gaza, and this administration has been an unimaginable catastrophe.
@mastodonmigration Biden is one of the main people who gave you this current administration. It's not purity trap politics to recognize that. He literally campaigned on "going back to normal", by which he meant "the moment before Trump got elected".
-
@mastodonmigration we are all aware of the stakes, and so are the Democrats who are ignoring their own political analysis, and nominating and supporting terrible candidates. They are the ones who killed the Bernie campaign and then asked everyone to vote for the lesser evil of Hillary Clinton.
https://www.newsweek.com/clinton-robbed-sanders-dnc-brazile-699421
And yet the Democrat's terrible candidates are infinitely better than the GOP fascists. What are we even talking about? In what world is losing to the fascists a better outcome?
-
@mastodonmigration Biden is one of the main people who gave you this current administration. It's not purity trap politics to recognize that. He literally campaigned on "going back to normal", by which he meant "the moment before Trump got elected".
@mastodonmigration if your political system and beliefs can be reduced to "we should stay at the Infinite Genocide stage for the rest of time so that we don't one day escalate to the Infinite Genocide Plus stage" then you shouldn't have a political system.
-
And yet the Democrat's terrible candidates are infinitely better than the GOP fascists. What are we even talking about? In what world is losing to the fascists a better outcome?
@mastodonmigration I agree, but who should we be blaming here? The voters who can't bring themselves to vote for someone actively aiding and abetting a genocide or the political party whose whole full time job is to be professional politicians and win elections?
-
@mastodonmigration I agree, but who should we be blaming here? The voters who can't bring themselves to vote for someone actively aiding and abetting a genocide or the political party whose whole full time job is to be professional politicians and win elections?
We should vote for the least harm. Full stop, and keep working to improve the system. That means electing better Democrats when we can, and not handing victories to the fascists to prove some sort of ideological point. Because then we go backwards, and we need to start rebuilding all over again.
-
@mastodonmigration if your political system and beliefs can be reduced to "we should stay at the Infinite Genocide stage for the rest of time so that we don't one day escalate to the Infinite Genocide Plus stage" then you shouldn't have a political system.
No, that's not it at all. We should avoid Genocide Plus at all costs, because that kills a lot more people. You willingness to sacrifice these people and not take responsibility for it is what is messed up about your argument.
-
We should vote for the least harm. Full stop, and keep working to improve the system. That means electing better Democrats when we can, and not handing victories to the fascists to prove some sort of ideological point. Because then we go backwards, and we need to start rebuilding all over again.
@mastodonmigration what people should do and what people do do are two different things and politics is understanding the difference. Rick Wilson is a scum bag but he is good at winning elections and this is not a voter problem.
-
No, that's not it at all. We should avoid Genocide Plus at all costs, because that kills a lot more people. You willingness to sacrifice these people and not take responsibility for it is what is messed up about your argument.
@mastodonmigration But what if going to Genocide Plus helps us avoid going to Genocide Plus Max?
See how trying to make a delineation between Infinite Genocide and More Infinite Genocide just becomes sophistry if your end conclusion is "we should settle for Infinite Genocide"?
If the Trump admin, theoretically, was to utterly collapse USA hegemony and ruin its status as a superpower, that's *preferable* to a world where Genocide Joe and his predecessors get to do a "lesser" genocide to the Palestinians for the next 200 years. Accelerationism tends to be a pretty myopic and inconsistent worldview but it just so happens to be a good counter to the myopic and inconsistent one you are advocating for.
-
@mastodonmigration But what if going to Genocide Plus helps us avoid going to Genocide Plus Max?
See how trying to make a delineation between Infinite Genocide and More Infinite Genocide just becomes sophistry if your end conclusion is "we should settle for Infinite Genocide"?
If the Trump admin, theoretically, was to utterly collapse USA hegemony and ruin its status as a superpower, that's *preferable* to a world where Genocide Joe and his predecessors get to do a "lesser" genocide to the Palestinians for the next 200 years. Accelerationism tends to be a pretty myopic and inconsistent worldview but it just so happens to be a good counter to the myopic and inconsistent one you are advocating for.
This is just nonsense.
-
@mastodonmigration what people should do and what people do do are two different things and politics is understanding the difference. Rick Wilson is a scum bag but he is good at winning elections and this is not a voter problem.
Glenn Greenwald and now Rick Wilson
️Edit: Sorry, that was rude, but not taking Democratic electoral advice from Glen Greenwald or Rick Wilson.
-
Glenn Greenwald and now Rick Wilson
️Edit: Sorry, that was rude, but not taking Democratic electoral advice from Glen Greenwald or Rick Wilson.
@mastodonmigration who's the purist now?
-
@mastodonmigration who's the purist now?
Guess so. Both those guys are scum.
-
Guess so. Both those guys are scum.
@mastodonmigration thank you for the reasonable conversation, one of the things I like about Mastadon. Not always but more than other platforms people seem more interested in listening to arguments than just shouting at each other.
-
@mastodonmigration thank you for the reasonable conversation, one of the things I like about Mastadon. Not always but more than other platforms people seem more interested in listening to arguments than just shouting at each other.
Back at you. Take care.
