Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that
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@mjg59 but wait, there's more
What if you're not renowned security expert and open-source celebrity @mjg59 (that currently works at nvidia btw, profiting from the LLM boom, sorry) but just some guy trying to make ends meet doing some coding?...
Now you get an LLM mandate from your company that comes with the implication that 'either you boost your productivity with 80% or we fire you and contract a cheap prompter in your place'...
If the cheap prompter can produce the same results, what are the arguments against this?
- copyright violation in the training material
- excessively high use of the world's resources for training and inferenceIf both of those were handled (that's a big if. Maybe someday, maybe not) what were the arguments be against choosing the cheap Proctor?
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Look, coders, we are not writers. There's no way to turn "increment this variable" into life changing prose. The creativity exists outside the code. It always has done and it always will do. Let it go.
@mjg59 you’re doing the thing where you’re romanticizing another profession by assuming the grass is greener. most writers are not novelists. most are writing pretty dry ad copy or instruction manuals or something, just like most programmers aren’t writing especially novel or beautiful algorithms (or, for that matter, video games where algorithmic processes evoke a feeling). you’re just confusing form and content here
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If the cheap prompter can produce the same results, what are the arguments against this?
- copyright violation in the training material
- excessively high use of the world's resources for training and inferenceIf both of those were handled (that's a big if. Maybe someday, maybe not) what were the arguments be against choosing the cheap Proctor?
@seanfurey @mjg59 lmao. Assuming a total of 20 million software developers world-wide, what is the problem with firing 5-10 million people in the span of 1-2 years? You really can't think of any problem with this except the blatant copyright violations and disastrous environmental impact? Those are people my guy, they and their families need food, shelter, healthcare, and people can't just choose a new craft, let alone while competing with a couple of million in the same situation...
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Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it to
LLMs: (enable that)
Free software people: Oh no not like thatif i am honest the price of such, psychotic breaks, isn't worth the freedom of per request billing
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if i am honest the price of such, psychotic breaks, isn't worth the freedom of per request billing
@mjg59 it is a fair criticism of free software that they haven't managed to meaningfully increase people's agency over the computer
but it is a flight of fancy to suggest that extractive labor and outsourcing gives people that agency or control
even before we get to the "software that kills teenagers" part of the faustian pact
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@jenesuispasgoth @mjg59
Some people think they can recycle FOSS from one licence to another using LLM, such as GPL2 to MIT or whatever. They are IP thieves.
All FOSS code, any so called copyleft licence, is actually copyright. Public domain code is a special case and in reality rare for anything written in the last 50 years. All of AT&T UNIX is still copyright.
Even programs or OS where the source has been made public with limitation for use is mostly still some sort of copyright.@raymaccarthy @jenesuispasgoth @mjg59 I don't much like the answer, but the assessment in the US seems to be that, yes, this laundering works if the new code is different enough.
If you sidestep the question of whether the output can be copyrighted (such as chardet did in the end) and you rename it, you're probably "good".
(Again. Me no like. And maybe different in the EU.) -
@seanfurey @mjg59 lmao. Assuming a total of 20 million software developers world-wide, what is the problem with firing 5-10 million people in the span of 1-2 years? You really can't think of any problem with this except the blatant copyright violations and disastrous environmental impact? Those are people my guy, they and their families need food, shelter, healthcare, and people can't just choose a new craft, let alone while competing with a couple of million in the same situation...
I'm one of them. And it does worry me.
And at the same time, I think that a lot of dock workers lost their jobs when shipping became containerised. Do I think that shouldn't have happened? Do I think software engineering is different? I don't know, I'm trying to work it out.
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My question was less about "these two issues are the only problems" than "let's pretend these two issues don't exist and look at the job issue on its own". Because of the plagiarism/slop/environment issues are ever "resolved" the job question will remain.
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Clearly my most unpopular thread ever, so let me add a clarification: submitting LLM generated code you don't understand to an upstream project is absolute bullshit and you should never do that. Having an LLM turn an existing codebase into something that meets your local needs? Do it. The code may be awful, it may break stuff you don't care about, and that's what all my early patches to free software looked like. It's ok to solve your problem locally.
@mjg59 I don't think your points in this thread are wrong, but I'm going to gently, firmly disagree with you about the universality of your statements.
I program for many reasons, but a core reason why I enjoy it so much is that I learn new things about the problem space during the process. I treasure that. I go back to restructure my code after it works to try to share this process of discovery & learning with folks who might read my code later.
LLM coding for effect only ignores this.
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@seanfurey @petko @mjg59 The smarter companies strive for augmentation rather than replacement. Only those who seek excuses for bad cash flow or those who genuinely have no idea what to do with higher productivity do.
That said, I do think there is an unbelievable number of those. Plus it widens the gap of those who can benefit the most, and those who can't.
The ethical concerns are "mostly" in the supply chain and the fascists selling the systems today.
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@raymaccarthy @jenesuispasgoth @mjg59 I don't much like the answer, but the assessment in the US seems to be that, yes, this laundering works if the new code is different enough.
If you sidestep the question of whether the output can be copyrighted (such as chardet did in the end) and you rename it, you're probably "good".
(Again. Me no like. And maybe different in the EU.)@larsmb @jenesuispasgoth @mjg59
The US is the country that on the one hand has the draconian DMCA (unfair) and on the other hand said it's fine for Google to entirely scan copyright works (a totally paid for decision that isn't "fair use").
The USPTO broken since Edison.It's not a clean room re-implementation. It's automated plagiarism. I can do that in Perl or WP to a novel changing places and people. Copyright violation.
Even if you also manually transpose to a different era it might be. -
@mjg59 I don't think your points in this thread are wrong, but I'm going to gently, firmly disagree with you about the universality of your statements.
I program for many reasons, but a core reason why I enjoy it so much is that I learn new things about the problem space during the process. I treasure that. I go back to restructure my code after it works to try to share this process of discovery & learning with folks who might read my code later.
LLM coding for effect only ignores this.
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@mjg59 I'm not opposed to the existence of code-for-effect, and I'm not even opposed to using such software, but it's not what I want, care about, or treasure. I treasure code written for readers and contributors first.
I want there to be more of this kind of code in the world. And I don't think it's a zero-sum game: there can be more rich code _and_ more code-for-effect. They're both fine.
I just don't think I'm OK with the statement that code-for-effect is the only kind that matters.
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@seanfurey I assume you're referring to the ISO containers. Can you please check how long did it take to switch to predominantly containerized shipping, and was it two years? Because this is the chief issue -- short-sighted companies WILL fire en-masse not leaving time for people to re-specialise/transition safely and peacefully to a new craft.
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@mjg59 but wait, there's more
What if you're not renowned security expert and open-source celebrity @mjg59 (that currently works at nvidia btw, profiting from the LLM boom, sorry) but just some guy trying to make ends meet doing some coding?...
Now you get an LLM mandate from your company that comes with the implication that 'either you boost your productivity with 80% or we fire you and contract a cheap prompter in your place'...
Mmm steady on... at least in his first part he has a good point (didn't read the rest). To the extent that LLMs push FOSS forward, they are good. His point can stand or keel over without having to bash him over the head with his supposed motivation.
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@larsmb @jenesuispasgoth @mjg59
The US is the country that on the one hand has the draconian DMCA (unfair) and on the other hand said it's fine for Google to entirely scan copyright works (a totally paid for decision that isn't "fair use").
The USPTO broken since Edison.It's not a clean room re-implementation. It's automated plagiarism. I can do that in Perl or WP to a novel changing places and people. Copyright violation.
Even if you also manually transpose to a different era it might be.@raymaccarthy @jenesuispasgoth @mjg59 I think it morally is a copyright violation too.
I also have come to the conclusion (including an explanation by Fontana in the chardet issue) that unless you can identify persistent copyrightable expression from prior art, your new work isn't a violation.
If you don't care whether it's copyrightable, you're probably in the clear.
Exposure is a problem if you're under NDA or trade secrets are involved, yes. Or maybe patents.
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@seanfurey I assume you're referring to the ISO containers. Can you please check how long did it take to switch to predominantly containerized shipping, and was it two years? Because this is the chief issue -- short-sighted companies WILL fire en-masse not leaving time for people to re-specialise/transition safely and peacefully to a new craft.
I imagine not, although I have no idea.
I think that's less of a question of " is there a fundamental problem with replacing programmers with llms?", more " if it happens, would it happen quicker than people can adapt to?".
Both are valid questions, they're slightly independent I think.
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Look, coders, we are not writers. There's no way to turn "increment this variable" into life changing prose. The creativity exists outside the code. It always has done and it always will do. Let it go.
@mjg59 no
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@barnoid Huh interesting, that's really not my experience of writing code - I sit down with a formed idea of what needs to happen and then I smash keys until it's there. And now I'm curious whether there's a real disconnect between with different models of coding.
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@mjg59 That said, I don't object to LLMs. With what I do, their use is niche, and I rarely need them, but they're useful for spitting out unimportant code in some unwieldy framework like Vue/JS/HTML.
