This is a modern motherfucking website.
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I mean, if WebP halves image size (which in my case it does, if not better), then that cuts the server's storage requirements in half. Seems like a big deal to me.
What sort of liability would they be accepting? Patent liability? If they're accepting WebM then they've already accepted liability for whatever patents might apply to WebP.
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Yeah, but like I said earlier in the thread, nobody (no end user) WANTS to use webp. It didn't thumbnail properly in Windows Explorer the last time I was dumb enough to save a webp on a Windows install, and Apple holds contempt for everyone outside of their organization so it certainly doesn't work right on macOS or iOS. It probably works fine on Android and half-works on $YOUR_FAVORITE_LIBERATED_TOOLKIT_FILEPICKER. Again, being really good for developers doesn't make it a slam dunk for the people being served the image, other than "look at this with your eyeballs and do nothing else with it ever." -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I can't remember if it was a malformed pdf or a malformed image, but something running on the server was an ancient, exploitable version, and someone uploaded a malformed file in order to get access to the website. I want to say it was an old imagemagick version that was generating thumbnails but I really can't remember without looking. The month-long downtime that followed was probably the devs scrambling to monkeypatch both yotsuba and all of the binaries it reaches out while operating. It's not like the webring imageboards that are all running infinity forks where everything's free software, 4chan's been running the same crusty old php codebase which was probably legacy code when moot stole it from 2chan.
So yeah, a vulnerable server-side thumbnail generator. Welp.
Does 4chan have unofficial client apps? That's the only reason I can think of to not generate thumbnails on the client side…
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@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Yeah, but like I said earlier in the thread, nobody (no end user) WANTS to use webp. It didn't thumbnail properly in Windows Explorer the last time I was dumb enough to save a webp on a Windows install, and Apple holds contempt for everyone outside of their organization so it certainly doesn't work right on macOS or iOS. It probably works fine on Android and half-works on $YOUR_FAVORITE_LIBERATED_TOOLKIT_FILEPICKER. Again, being really good for developers doesn't make it a slam dunk for the people being served the image, other than "look at this with your eyeballs and do nothing else with it ever."
Speak for yourself. I appreciate being able to do alpha and lossy compression at the same time.
I've only needed that a few times, but last time I did, I only had PNG and JPEG and SVG to work with, so I had to embed a JPEG image and a PNG alpha mask into an SVG and use its mask feature to pull off the effect. It was not pleasant. At all. Good riddance.
As for Windows/macOS not supporting it: why are you still using Windows/macOS?
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So yeah, a vulnerable server-side thumbnail generator. Welp.
Does 4chan have unofficial client apps? That's the only reason I can think of to not generate thumbnails on the client side…
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven It's exclusively unofficial client apps, and anyone who isn't using one of the unofficial mobile apps is likely using a comprehensive userscript to supplement the website's functionality. There's a half-assed half-baked unfinished subdomain for a progressive web app that was intended for mobile users whose development got abandoned like ten years ago. -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven It's exclusively unofficial client apps, and anyone who isn't using one of the unofficial mobile apps is likely using a comprehensive userscript to supplement the website's functionality. There's a half-assed half-baked unfinished subdomain for a progressive web app that was intended for mobile users whose development got abandoned like ten years ago.
That would be a problem.
I'm guessing it isn't feasible to just tell all the app developers to start also submitting thumbnails?
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Speak for yourself. I appreciate being able to do alpha and lossy compression at the same time.
I've only needed that a few times, but last time I did, I only had PNG and JPEG and SVG to work with, so I had to embed a JPEG image and a PNG alpha mask into an SVG and use its mask feature to pull off the effect. It was not pleasant. At all. Good riddance.
As for Windows/macOS not supporting it: why are you still using Windows/macOS?
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven The front page right now says there's 231-THOUSAND current users, however they're measuring that. I'm sure a lot of people are using their phones these days, but nevertheless, it's not me that you have to convince to switch. But even if my system supports it, I'm still not going to use it. -
This is a modern motherfucking website.
And it’s still fucking perfect.
I am annoyed by how much overlap there is between JSON-LD/Microdata, Open Graph, and standard HTML <title>/<meta name=description>/<link rel=icon>/etc.
It's my understanding that Open Graph readers will fall back to standard HTML for anything that doesn't have a specific Open Graph tag, but as far as I can tell, JSON-LD/Microdata readers don't.
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That would be a problem.
I'm guessing it isn't feasible to just tell all the app developers to start also submitting thumbnails?
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven
>That would be a problem.
Ostensibly, yes. Realistically, no. Every phone application is free software, even the iOS one. Moreover, it's hard to imagine them actually making an official application given the App Store's content requirements, not that e.g. Twitter can't get around them while hosting the same kinds of images, 4chan just has that reputation for itself. Chance works well but it's never leaving TestFlight and requires a song and dance to get the website loading. -
This is a modern motherfucking website.
And it’s still fucking perfect.
@lproven what are the motherfucking maths on a motherfucking website options?
MathJax works pretty well, though it is JavaScript. I suppose the point here is to avoid unnecessary JavaScriptt though. So is MathJax motherfucking maths?
There's MathML but with a significant amount of maths, the file size is huge compared to the MathJax version.
Pre-generate svg with lazy loading? I've never tried that...
Some other option?
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@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven The front page right now says there's 231-THOUSAND current users, however they're measuring that. I'm sure a lot of people are using their phones these days, but nevertheless, it's not me that you have to convince to switch. But even if my system supports it, I'm still not going to use it.
Okay, then I have to ask:
* If using WebP would be convenient for me,
* but inconvenient for you,
* and you refuse to solve the inconvenience for you while simultaneously solving all the other problems that Windows/macOS cause for you,
* while solving no problems for me whatsoever,
* and leaving me to scratch my head over how to avoid losing SEO from the resulting slower page loads,then why exactly should I go to the trouble of refraining from using WebP?
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Okay, then I have to ask:
* If using WebP would be convenient for me,
* but inconvenient for you,
* and you refuse to solve the inconvenience for you while simultaneously solving all the other problems that Windows/macOS cause for you,
* while solving no problems for me whatsoever,
* and leaving me to scratch my head over how to avoid losing SEO from the resulting slower page loads,then why exactly should I go to the trouble of refraining from using WebP?
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven
>and you refuse to solve the inconvenience
What's there to solve? It's not like "oh maybe I should emerge -avq media-gfx/super-duper-webp-thumbnailer to get this working in Emanuele's funny torment nexus" and that makes the problem of Google imposing this file format on the internet while bullying out the competition from loading in Blink-adjacent web browsers from going away. "Solving" the "inconvenience" involves dropping nukes or Alphabet getting trust-busted. What do you want from me? -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven
>and you refuse to solve the inconvenience
What's there to solve? It's not like "oh maybe I should emerge -avq media-gfx/super-duper-webp-thumbnailer to get this working in Emanuele's funny torment nexus" and that makes the problem of Google imposing this file format on the internet while bullying out the competition from loading in Blink-adjacent web browsers from going away. "Solving" the "inconvenience" involves dropping nukes or Alphabet getting trust-busted. What do you want from me?@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Like there's a world where I save every webp in its own little gulag folder and ask the slopalisk to pretty please write a script that detected things like alpha and animation and heuristically determine whether the webp that you posted should be converted into a jpeg, gif, png, or audio-less webm, and batch convert all the dogshit coming out of the internet pipe at once. That doesnt "solve" the "inconvenience," it just automates having to unfuck the internet, and it's still 100% my loss and 100% your gain. -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven
>and you refuse to solve the inconvenience
What's there to solve? It's not like "oh maybe I should emerge -avq media-gfx/super-duper-webp-thumbnailer to get this working in Emanuele's funny torment nexus" and that makes the problem of Google imposing this file format on the internet while bullying out the competition from loading in Blink-adjacent web browsers from going away. "Solving" the "inconvenience" involves dropping nukes or Alphabet getting trust-busted. What do you want from me?You mean to tell me this is literally the only thing about Windows that is causing you trouble?
Not having a screenshot taken every 3 seconds and uploaded to Microsoft for AI training? Not the ads? Not Copilot in freaking Notepad? None of it?
Okay then.
️For the record, I did not suggest you install Gentoo or NetBSD. There's a whole spectrum between doing literally nothing and computing on ultra-nightmare mode.
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You mean to tell me this is literally the only thing about Windows that is causing you trouble?
Not having a screenshot taken every 3 seconds and uploaded to Microsoft for AI training? Not the ads? Not Copilot in freaking Notepad? None of it?
Okay then.
️For the record, I did not suggest you install Gentoo or NetBSD. There's a whole spectrum between doing literally nothing and computing on ultra-nightmare mode.
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I didn't say I used Windows, I said there's two-hundred-and-thirty-thousand other people on the website at that snapshot in time and you have to convince ALL OF THEM.
And I do use Gentoo, absolutely. -
You mean to tell me this is literally the only thing about Windows that is causing you trouble?
Not having a screenshot taken every 3 seconds and uploaded to Microsoft for AI training? Not the ads? Not Copilot in freaking Notepad? None of it?
Okay then.
️For the record, I did not suggest you install Gentoo or NetBSD. There's a whole spectrum between doing literally nothing and computing on ultra-nightmare mode.
Also for the record, Alphabet getting trust-busted won't make WebP any less available or useful. People will still use it.
Well, that or they might start using JPEG XL. Don't look now, but Chrome just added support for that too. I think Google finally relented on that because now they have a decoder written in Rust, so they don't have to worry about buffer overflow exploits…which WebP has had.
I'm guessing Windows won't natively support that either, though.
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@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Like there's a world where I save every webp in its own little gulag folder and ask the slopalisk to pretty please write a script that detected things like alpha and animation and heuristically determine whether the webp that you posted should be converted into a jpeg, gif, png, or audio-less webm, and batch convert all the dogshit coming out of the internet pipe at once. That doesnt "solve" the "inconvenience," it just automates having to unfuck the internet, and it's still 100% my loss and 100% your gain.
Wait, you're big mad about WebP but fine with WebM?
Now I'm terribly confused. -
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I didn't say I used Windows, I said there's two-hundred-and-thirty-thousand other people on the website at that snapshot in time and you have to convince ALL OF THEM.
And I do use Gentoo, absolutely.What's the problem, then? The only trouble I've had with WebP is that I needed to separately install webp-pixbuf-loader to make WebP work in Inkscape, which is…annoying and arguably a distro bug, but whatever. The situation on Windows certainly isn't any better.
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Also for the record, Alphabet getting trust-busted won't make WebP any less available or useful. People will still use it.
Well, that or they might start using JPEG XL. Don't look now, but Chrome just added support for that too. I think Google finally relented on that because now they have a decoder written in Rust, so they don't have to worry about buffer overflow exploits…which WebP has had.
I'm guessing Windows won't natively support that either, though.
@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven I had seen a conversation about it that convinced me that it should slot in next-to-transparently on any system or software that supported both, like we could eventually expect to have legacy jpegs and jpeg xls floating around with the same file extension and nobody would notice. I can't remember why I got that idea, maybe it's because it's a superset of the old format. Still, I've seen the benchmarks and I understand/at one point understood how the file formats fit together, and it's my personal horse in the file extension race. -
So yeah, a vulnerable server-side thumbnail generator. Welp.
Does 4chan have unofficial client apps? That's the only reason I can think of to not generate thumbnails on the client side…
@argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org
Letting the client upload a separate thumbnail for the image being submitted sounds like a bad idea — users are unlikely to appreciate finding shock content clicking on normally looking thumbnails. It also sounds like a moderation nightmare — because mods would have to check both: thumbnails AND original images.
@idiot@shitposter.world
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Wait, you're big mad about WebP but fine with WebM?
Now I'm terribly confused.@argv_minus_one @chaekyung @lproven Google did the same thing with VP8/VP9 less successfully and AV1 more prolifically that it did with webps, but the difference is that a) it was going up against MPEG-LA rather than every Tom, Dick, and Harry file format that just happened to lie outside the organization, and b) Google still has to support MPEG-4 and HEVC and whatever the successor is called in Blink, whereas it just shut out all the competing image file formats because fuck you, not invented here, we own the internet so just try and stop us. Same methods, different results. AV1 is a still piece of shit codec even if I'm glad it exists.
