Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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I suspect, even more, that lack of ranked choice voting is hurting hard here.
A lot of people probably voted for the option presented that was closest to what they actually want. What they actually wabt isn't an option because Mozilla won't consider it.
But of the remaining options, there's a preference they'd have over the one they voted for.
Giving people a poll where the options they want are deliberately included is going to generate bad results which will only result in upsetting the community even more, because now you'll claim to have consent..
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
@pixx @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet he is actually doing just that and taking actions based on this rigged poll!
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Did you seriously believe that unshipping a largely well-regarded feature like translations was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
I think that was a feature once.
The great browser from the Mozilla suite, but without all the other bloat, so it boots faster and uses less of your expensive RAM and you can install all the other parts a separate applications or extensions. -
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
you might add : I want an "opt-in" button
@Tacitus @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante jake's already tried "well what even *is* opt in, it's so impossibly complicated you know"
(it isn't, make it an extension)
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@barubary @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Nevermind that the origin of Firefox *itself*, back when it was an experimental rogue project named Phoenix, was to jettison the accumulated weight of Mozilla Suite and move all the bells and whistles to optional add-ons. Back when the browser also included an e-mail, Usenet, calendar, and chat app that couldn't be turned off. Mozilla is actively unlearning the original lesson of Firefox's wild success.
@heptapodEnthusiast @barubary @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Ghods yes. Mozilla as it was back then wouldn't even run on my elderly 486 laptop, and the brand new Firefox stripped of all its bells and whistles and tat would.
Being lightweight and just a browser was the original feature.
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari so you admit that your interpretation of what "the vast majority of people feel" is based on a dataset you deliberately doctored to exclude anything you don't want to hear?
Your "interpretation" of popular userbase opinion is less than worthless, it's actively dishonest, self deluding, and alienating to the userbase.
Your behavior on mastodon is why today I finally switched to waterfox.
@kyle_pegasus @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari it isn't things I don't want to hear. As you can see, I'm absolutely hearing them and responding to them.
However, the poll represented options available for the initial release of the AI kill switch with regards to translation.
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@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
@firefoxwebdevs chiming in to note that I approached the poll, as a user, as selecting the option *closest* to "keep AI out of the browser."
I think we all collectively understand that Mozilla wants AI involved in the browser. I'm not sure who among us using Firefox does, however.
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@zzt @jaffathecake @davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs Fatality. Objective C... WINS
@errant @zzt @jaffathecake @firefoxwebdevs that's *mister* object
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@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard "trained on open data" what kind of open data? and why does this need to be in the browser in the first place instead of being an extension?
your last sentence feels condescending. "it should be disabled" is not the winner, "it should be disabled with the option of enabling" is the winner. why wasn't there an option for "make firefox's machine translation an extension instead"?
if you think i am misunderstanding, consider that i am a very average user of firefox who does not work in anything remotely resembling tech and if you feel like i don't understand something then that means either you are doing a shit job explaining or you are being stubborn and do not want to accept that even average users don't want this forced on them. or both.
@angelfeast @firefoxwebdevs "open data" as in "stolen", not "open" at all
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@kyle_pegasus @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari it isn't things I don't want to hear. As you can see, I'm absolutely hearing them and responding to them.
However, the poll represented options available for the initial release of the AI kill switch with regards to translation.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari No, do not bullshit me, you said yourself that what you "interpret" that "the vast majority of people feel" comes from the poll!
The poll which you doctored by specifically making it only pro-LLM-in-firefox, because you are an asshole.
Your assholeness is further demonstrated by you "not seeing the point" of hearing things you don't want to hear, because you'll just do this LLM shit regardless how much it's hated.
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt it seems weird that you think I'm going to play word games with you as if you don't have a hundred *written* responses to your poll saying that the kill switch is unnecessary if these were all add-ons.
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt I don't think taking you at your word is playing word games. You meant what you said.
That aside, rearchitecting multiple large features to be plugins won't be possible for Firefox 148, and imo we need that kill switch _yesterday_.
Anyway, it's the end of the day for me now. I appreciate the robust discussion.
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari No, do not bullshit me, you said yourself that what you "interpret" that "the vast majority of people feel" comes from the poll!
The poll which you doctored by specifically making it only pro-LLM-in-firefox, because you are an asshole.
Your assholeness is further demonstrated by you "not seeing the point" of hearing things you don't want to hear, because you'll just do this LLM shit regardless how much it's hated.
@kyle_pegasus @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari yes, my interpretation of the poll results is that, given the translation engine as it currently is, people feel it should be disabled if the kill switch is activated.
I really don't think that's a mad interpretation of the results.
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@kyle_pegasus @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari yes, my interpretation of the poll results is that, given the translation engine as it currently is, people feel it should be disabled if the kill switch is activated.
I really don't think that's a mad interpretation of the results.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
"I really don't think that letting him walk free from the murder trial is a mad interpretation of the evidence"
you had forbidden the prosecution from submitting the CCTV footage of him staving some guys head in with a candlestick as evidence. he's also your best friend IRL
"justice was served today"
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
"I really don't think that letting him walk free from the murder trial is a mad interpretation of the evidence"
you had forbidden the prosecution from submitting the CCTV footage of him staving some guys head in with a candlestick as evidence. he's also your best friend IRL
"justice was served today"
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I have to wonder if you even understand how dishonest you are
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@davidgerard @zzt @firefoxwebdevs It's telling that you can't admit that you (deliberately?) misrepresented me to stir outrage.
@jaffathecake @davidgerard @zzt @firefoxwebdevs
brother what the hell are you even fighting for here lmfao
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@240185 I've already used the results of this poll to push for change in the AI kill switch. The feedback was massively appreciated.
@firefoxwebdevs @240185 Did you mention the overall dim view that users express at the prospect of losing their favorite browser to AI hype? Mozilla's problem here is far greater than "how should we implement a kill switch." How is Mozilla planning to restore the trust they've lost by employing deceptive patterns against their user base?
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante Am I a firefox user if I use a derivative like waterfox?
@OliviaVespera @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante Waterfox has pledged no AI and won't be accepting those bits. So has Zen.
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
"I want something
I can call my own,
that ain't a Ford Cortina
or a mortgage on a home!" -
@sibrosan @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante
Your trust in corporations will put you in harm's way as fascism worsens.
@crowgirl @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante
Yes I know I'm doomed
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@firefoxwebdevs The frame of this question is risible.
I am begging you to just make a web browser.
Make it the best browser for the open web. Make it a browser that empowers individuals. Make it a browser that defends users against threats.
Do not make a search engine. Do not make a translation engine. Do not make a webpage summariser. Do not make a front-end for an LLM. Do not make a client-side LLM.
Just. Make. A. Web. Browser.
Please.
I think it's OK if they make *some* of those things... provided they aren't baked into the browser or installed with it by default.
(A search engine and a translator plugin seem fine. LLM stuff can eff right off.)
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@firefoxwebdevs I disagree with the premise.
@rowmyboat @firefoxwebdevs Yep. It's exactly what the parents of a toddler do when they want the child to feel like it has control. "You can have ANYTHING you want, so what's it gonna be, apple or banana?"
It's insulting
