1. Debian Developer resigns from the project in response to the recent vote to allow generative AI use within Debian.2.
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@mogul @msbellows @jik
No. That's a generalization too far. A representative majority of both 'sides' is not the same. The people who boost AI in business can be independently shown to be further from measurable reality than those who don't. Proper, peer reviewed research has shown traits correlate with liking AI. "The most consistent predictors of AI use across studies were aversive personality traits (e.g., Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy)" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40977447/@AlexsandraSmart @msbellows @jik I'm not doubting that. But I'm also seeing people opposed to AI apply use and/or tolerance of AI as purity tests for projects, people, and purpose, and rejecting any association with anyone who fails their test because of the people off the deep end you're talking about.
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@jik tone of the message aside. How is #Debian supposed to ban AI assisted coding or only include human generated #code?
I'm not defending what or how the guy said what he said, it was terrible antisocial nerd cringe.
But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions? How much can AI touch code I submitted? If I use it to keep my TODO list or as a rubber duck should my code be excluded?
I'm asking in good faith, not trolling.
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@jik tone of the message aside. How is #Debian supposed to ban AI assisted coding or only include human generated #code?
I'm not defending what or how the guy said what he said, it was terrible antisocial nerd cringe.
But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions? How much can AI touch code I submitted? If I use it to keep my TODO list or as a rubber duck should my code be excluded?
I'm asking in good faith, not trolling.
@MeaningfulBits @jik The way a ban on AI-assisted coding would work is that people agree not to do it as a condition of contributing to the project and are expected to keep their promise, and violating that agreement would be a violation of the code of conduct.
It’s not really very complicated and I don’t know why AI lovers want to make it more complicated than it is.
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@AlexsandraSmart @msbellows @jik I'm not doubting that. But I'm also seeing people opposed to AI apply use and/or tolerance of AI as purity tests for projects, people, and purpose, and rejecting any association with anyone who fails their test because of the people off the deep end you're talking about.
@mogul @AlexsandraSmart @jik Except AI isn't the baby thrown out with the bathwater (its more rabid advocates). AI is objectively harmful. It is trained on stolen IP, wastes massive amounts of water, requires massive energy inputs when climate change demands that we reduce energy use, is making the open Internet almost unusable, and measurably makes users dumber. I'll agree it has limited usefulness for certain kinds of scientific research and for disability accommodations; other than that, it's an evil in and of itself.
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@jik This is so depressing. Debian is the Linux distro I’ve put my trust on over the last 25+ years. I can’t even process this.
@fabi1cazenave @jik switch to #runbsd
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@mogul @AlexsandraSmart @jik Except AI isn't the baby thrown out with the bathwater (its more rabid advocates). AI is objectively harmful. It is trained on stolen IP, wastes massive amounts of water, requires massive energy inputs when climate change demands that we reduce energy use, is making the open Internet almost unusable, and measurably makes users dumber. I'll agree it has limited usefulness for certain kinds of scientific research and for disability accommodations; other than that, it's an evil in and of itself.
@msbellows @AlexsandraSmart @jik All fair criticisms, and ones that I hope will apply less in time with local inference, ethically-sourced models, etc. The technology is definitely in a "fetal stem cell" period of its existence.
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@jik tone of the message aside. How is #Debian supposed to ban AI assisted coding or only include human generated #code?
I'm not defending what or how the guy said what he said, it was terrible antisocial nerd cringe.
But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions? How much can AI touch code I submitted? If I use it to keep my TODO list or as a rubber duck should my code be excluded?
I'm asking in good faith, not trolling.
Just as copyright violation in #Debian is impossible to perfectly detect, and yet is strictly banned in the project, @MeaningfulBits.
It doesn't matter whether a perfect detection mechanism exists (it doesn't). The point of a ban is to be clear *that* this is the policy, *what* behaviour is banned, and that people know it.
Yes people can attempt to deliberately circumvent it. So we don't want people who deliberately try to evade policy.
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@jik tone of the message aside. How is #Debian supposed to ban AI assisted coding or only include human generated #code?
I'm not defending what or how the guy said what he said, it was terrible antisocial nerd cringe.
But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions? How much can AI touch code I submitted? If I use it to keep my TODO list or as a rubber duck should my code be excluded?
I'm asking in good faith, not trolling.
@MeaningfulBits
> But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions?“Leaving aside the ethical concerns, shouldn't we be focusing on the productive work that child labour can achieve?”
“I'm not defending the practice of stuffing asbestos into an apartment building's walls. But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of insulation?”
There is no ethical way to dismiss the ethical concerns. Until they are properly addressed, no we should not focus on quality of the code.
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@MeaningfulBits @jik The way a ban on AI-assisted coding would work is that people agree not to do it as a condition of contributing to the project and are expected to keep their promise, and violating that agreement would be a violation of the code of conduct.
It’s not really very complicated and I don’t know why AI lovers want to make it more complicated than it is.
@benjamineskola @jik who determines which is which. Just seems like it would be hard to enforce at best and miss used at worse. For a project that already has limited resources do we hire an #AI code watcher?
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@MeaningfulBits
> But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions?“Leaving aside the ethical concerns, shouldn't we be focusing on the productive work that child labour can achieve?”
“I'm not defending the practice of stuffing asbestos into an apartment building's walls. But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of insulation?”
There is no ethical way to dismiss the ethical concerns. Until they are properly addressed, no we should not focus on quality of the code.
@bignose @jik false equivalency aside. I rather label the person submitting the code responsible for w/e fuck ups come out of it instead of blaming the tool.
A local hobby model crossing off my TODO list and rubber ducking doesn't fit your narrative.
Yes children making shoes are bad, should I stop wearing shoes or jail the ceo?
Yes cancer causing material shouldn't be in our homes should I stop using insulation or jail the builder who put bad product in homes.
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@benjamineskola @jik who determines which is which. Just seems like it would be hard to enforce at best and miss used at worse. For a project that already has limited resources do we hire an #AI code watcher?
@MeaningfulBits @jik Why would you need to enforce it? People would have to agree to do it as a condition of membership in the project. I’m sure they can be trusted to keep their promise — or are you saying all AI users are liars who need constant monitoring to ensure they’re following the rules?
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@bignose @jik false equivalency aside. I rather label the person submitting the code responsible for w/e fuck ups come out of it instead of blaming the tool.
A local hobby model crossing off my TODO list and rubber ducking doesn't fit your narrative.
Yes children making shoes are bad, should I stop wearing shoes or jail the ceo?
Yes cancer causing material shouldn't be in our homes should I stop using insulation or jail the builder who put bad product in homes.
@MeaningfulBits @bignose @jik ...you use insulation that doesn't cause cancer *and* jail the CEOs of companies that use it
You *can* do more than one thing - and whilst there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, that doesn't mean you have to *try* to be as unethical as possible! -
@MeaningfulBits @jik Why would you need to enforce it? People would have to agree to do it as a condition of membership in the project. I’m sure they can be trusted to keep their promise — or are you saying all AI users are liars who need constant monitoring to ensure they’re following the rules?
@benjamineskola @jik "We hate power drills so you have to promise to not use power drills while donating your time/skills to build this community center, also we're never gonna actually check that you're not using a power drills."
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@jik tone of the message aside. How is #Debian supposed to ban AI assisted coding or only include human generated #code?
I'm not defending what or how the guy said what he said, it was terrible antisocial nerd cringe.
But shouldn't we be focusing on the quality of the code submissions? How much can AI touch code I submitted? If I use it to keep my TODO list or as a rubber duck should my code be excluded?
I'm asking in good faith, not trolling.
@MeaningfulBits @jik Perhaps take a look at
https://social.treehouse.systems/@CursedSilicon/117182663165177079It's not meant to be hard, except for people who value "niceness" over "social benefit" - it would mean they would have to engage in confrontation when dealing with dipshits trying to sidestep the rules.
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@benjamineskola @jik "We hate power drills so you have to promise to not use power drills while donating your time/skills to build this community center, also we're never gonna actually check that you're not using a power drills."
@MeaningfulBits Okay, so you do think all AI users are dishonest and can’t be trusted. Good to know!
Btw you realise this doesn’t actually help your argument at all? It actually makes your side look really bad. Just fyi. HTH, etc.
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@msbellows @AlexsandraSmart @jik All fair criticisms, and ones that I hope will apply less in time with local inference, ethically-sourced models, etc. The technology is definitely in a "fetal stem cell" period of its existence.
@mogul
At this point such an evolution should begin to appear, yet it doesn't. Quite the opposite actually. To go further on the biological comparison, it's more of a cancer that has spread everywhere and is killing its host.
@msbellows @AlexsandraSmart @jik -
@benjamineskola @jik "We hate power drills so you have to promise to not use power drills while donating your time/skills to build this community center, also we're never gonna actually check that you're not using a power drills."
@MeaningfulBits
Debian developpers already agree to unverifiable conditions on their code: that they have copyright on it. And that, while as unverifiable as AI tainting, has never bothered anyone.
@benjamineskola @jik -
@bignose @jik false equivalency aside. I rather label the person submitting the code responsible for w/e fuck ups come out of it instead of blaming the tool.
A local hobby model crossing off my TODO list and rubber ducking doesn't fit your narrative.
Yes children making shoes are bad, should I stop wearing shoes or jail the ceo?
Yes cancer causing material shouldn't be in our homes should I stop using insulation or jail the builder who put bad product in homes.
@MeaningfulBits
Oh, so you want to jail Altman, Amodei and friends? Cool, I'm with you
But the very first step is to stop using such products yourself once you know they were made by children or cause cancer. Even of society is slower to take the appropriate measures.
@bignose @jik -
@mogul
At this point such an evolution should begin to appear, yet it doesn't. Quite the opposite actually. To go further on the biological comparison, it's more of a cancer that has spread everywhere and is killing its host.
@msbellows @AlexsandraSmart @jik@RLetot @mogul @AlexsandraSmart @jik Yeah, my sense is that the prospect of Arnold being nice in Terminator 2 doesn't make up for the harm Skynet does in Terminator 1. I'd like AI to stop doing harm now, please.
