I have a similar issue as this poster - hachyderm.io
-
I have a similar issue as this poster - hachyderm.io
blocks fe.disroot.org because the fe.disroot.org admin has the same philosophy of only defederating as a last resort.https://social.vlhl.dev/objects/34dde49c-3b24-43a8-b161-8f1a56c6da52
Neither I, nor my friends on hachyderm.io, nor the fe.disroot.org admins, are engaging in any poor behaviour - and yet, we're the ones being punished.
Why is this a thing? Is this an architectural flaw in the #Fediverse?
-
I have a similar issue as this poster - hachyderm.io
blocks fe.disroot.org because the fe.disroot.org admin has the same philosophy of only defederating as a last resort.https://social.vlhl.dev/objects/34dde49c-3b24-43a8-b161-8f1a56c6da52
Neither I, nor my friends on hachyderm.io, nor the fe.disroot.org admins, are engaging in any poor behaviour - and yet, we're the ones being punished.
Why is this a thing? Is this an architectural flaw in the #Fediverse?
No sensible responses yet.
> Neither I, nor my friends on hachyderm.io, nor the fe.disroot.org admins, are engaging in any poor behaviour - and yet, we're the ones being punished.
Do tell me how this is in any way fair or just.
And could anyone explain how Disroot's defederation choices even affect Hachyderm? (Outside of defederating with Hachyderm itself, that is.)
-
No sensible responses yet.
> Neither I, nor my friends on hachyderm.io, nor the fe.disroot.org admins, are engaging in any poor behaviour - and yet, we're the ones being punished.
Do tell me how this is in any way fair or just.
And could anyone explain how Disroot's defederation choices even affect Hachyderm? (Outside of defederating with Hachyderm itself, that is.)
i can attempt a sensible response
you're expecting comprehensive behavior from chaos
servers will do whatever they want
there's no law or authority
nobody is being paid
nobody has obligations
so expecting a certain behavior is a nonstarter
i don't consider this to be abuse, but i do consider it to be fracture
that is, the fediverse naturally inclines to isolate as time goes on
so i agree with you it's a problem
but i say to you there is no solution for now
-
i can attempt a sensible response
you're expecting comprehensive behavior from chaos
servers will do whatever they want
there's no law or authority
nobody is being paid
nobody has obligations
so expecting a certain behavior is a nonstarter
i don't consider this to be abuse, but i do consider it to be fracture
that is, the fediverse naturally inclines to isolate as time goes on
so i agree with you it's a problem
but i say to you there is no solution for now
There is no "solution" for this because it's not a problem.
This is what giving grassroots organisations power looks like, they will all have different perspectives and decide for themselves what should happen. They will come together on things they agree with and go different ways on things they don't agree with.
It's not isolation, it's the power for every grassroots organisation to choose who they associate with. No one should be deciding on their behalf.
-
There is no "solution" for this because it's not a problem.
This is what giving grassroots organisations power looks like, they will all have different perspectives and decide for themselves what should happen. They will come together on things they agree with and go different ways on things they don't agree with.
It's not isolation, it's the power for every grassroots organisation to choose who they associate with. No one should be deciding on their behalf.
i still think it's a problem because it disinclines people from joining the fediverse
no one enjoys losing followers, contacts, friends, because an asshole mod somewhere doesn't like you, not because you did anything essentially wrong like bigotry or disinfo
people then leave
that's not empowering anything
and just accepting that means accepting the fediverse will stay fringe and fractured
but i did think of a sort-of solution since this post
-
i still think it's a problem because it disinclines people from joining the fediverse
no one enjoys losing followers, contacts, friends, because an asshole mod somewhere doesn't like you, not because you did anything essentially wrong like bigotry or disinfo
people then leave
that's not empowering anything
and just accepting that means accepting the fediverse will stay fringe and fractured
but i did think of a sort-of solution since this post
EDIT: Removed as I had misunderstood what Ben was saying. Sorry about that!
-
EDIT: Removed as I had misunderstood what Ben was saying. Sorry about that!
of course that's terrible but why do you think that supports what you're saying?
accepting the fediverse remain fringe and fractured means you also accept continued dominance by facebook
why?
we must accommodate people (nonbigots, no disinfo)
we must not accommodate the whims of asshole mods
it's not about follower count, it's about reach. greater reach means more impact. lowering impact to accommodate douchebags on a powertrip does not help what you linked
-
of course that's terrible but why do you think that supports what you're saying?
accepting the fediverse remain fringe and fractured means you also accept continued dominance by facebook
why?
we must accommodate people (nonbigots, no disinfo)
we must not accommodate the whims of asshole mods
it's not about follower count, it's about reach. greater reach means more impact. lowering impact to accommodate douchebags on a powertrip does not help what you linked
"Federating with servers that spread bigoted lies is wrong"
of course
look at my bio: #NoThreads is displayed prominently
and that is an entirely different topic
the topic here is amongst servers: asshole mods severing connections on pique, not violation of serious rules
individual people should block with abandon
server mods should follow serious rules to suspend, not whim or cruelty
or you rot the #fediverse, you drive people away due to capricious bullshit
-
"Federating with servers that spread bigoted lies is wrong"
of course
look at my bio: #NoThreads is displayed prominently
and that is an entirely different topic
the topic here is amongst servers: asshole mods severing connections on pique, not violation of serious rules
individual people should block with abandon
server mods should follow serious rules to suspend, not whim or cruelty
or you rot the #fediverse, you drive people away due to capricious bullshit
@benroyce @FediTips @contrapunctus
Fediverse have a solution to "asshole admin" - become an admin yourself. Of course it assumes you would got busy with moderation (pay with time) of own instance, or will need to pay some money for hosting, even if is some single-person instance. Or both.
But this is better than not having any solution to "asshole mod" problem we see across all centralized media/platforms. -
"Federating with servers that spread bigoted lies is wrong"
of course
look at my bio: #NoThreads is displayed prominently
and that is an entirely different topic
the topic here is amongst servers: asshole mods severing connections on pique, not violation of serious rules
individual people should block with abandon
server mods should follow serious rules to suspend, not whim or cruelty
or you rot the #fediverse, you drive people away due to capricious bullshit
Hmm... perhaps we might be talking at cross purposes?
I was mainly replying about servers that federate with everyone regardless of whether they are promoting bad stuff.
But from your reply you're talking about servers where admins aren't considering their moderation policy seriously enough?
In some ways they're sort of the same issue, of admins not thinking through the consequences of their actions? It's a very tough job to run a public server for this reason.
-
@benroyce @FediTips @contrapunctus
Fediverse have a solution to "asshole admin" - become an admin yourself. Of course it assumes you would got busy with moderation (pay with time) of own instance, or will need to pay some money for hosting, even if is some single-person instance. Or both.
But this is better than not having any solution to "asshole mod" problem we see across all centralized media/platforms.@koteisaev @FediTips @contrapunctus
in no way do i think centralized corporate social media is better in any way to the fediverse
but asshole mods defederating on pique is a problem
-
Hmm... perhaps we might be talking at cross purposes?
I was mainly replying about servers that federate with everyone regardless of whether they are promoting bad stuff.
But from your reply you're talking about servers where admins aren't considering their moderation policy seriously enough?
In some ways they're sort of the same issue, of admins not thinking through the consequences of their actions? It's a very tough job to run a public server for this reason.
yeah, i was talking more in general about asshole mods, while you're scoping the problem to defederating from threads or bigot servers
which i agree with
sorry
it's hard to fit everything in 500 chars
-
yeah, i was talking more in general about asshole mods, while you're scoping the problem to defederating from threads or bigot servers
which i agree with
sorry
it's hard to fit everything in 500 chars
Totally understand, no need for apology! Yeah, 500 chars not great for these discussions.
It's so easy to get wrong end of stick, I'm sorry I did so.
-
@koteisaev @FediTips @contrapunctus
in no way do i think centralized corporate social media is better in any way to the fediverse
but asshole mods defederating on pique is a problem
@benroyce @FediTips @contrapunctus
I agree that there is a risk of what I can call "feudal behavior" from instance admins.
But again, having at least the technical option to become admin of own instance and collect together people across these instances affected by the feud between these admins, is solution available via Fediverse out of the box.
It does not require a protocol update or a creation if new moderation mechanism, or defining any legally binding licensing or exams for admins. -
@benroyce @FediTips @contrapunctus
I agree that there is a risk of what I can call "feudal behavior" from instance admins.
But again, having at least the technical option to become admin of own instance and collect together people across these instances affected by the feud between these admins, is solution available via Fediverse out of the box.
It does not require a protocol update or a creation if new moderation mechanism, or defining any legally binding licensing or exams for admins.Just to clarify my earlier post, I had totally misunderstood what Ben was saying. I think we're on the same side here.
I've edited my original reply to make this clear and remove the criticism.
