I get the snark, but "page has to load in x time on expensive device in expensive city"... where is the human?
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@mhoye Do you happen to remember any bits of information about the presentation itself? Tried to search on YT with parts of the quote or with "nhs design presentation", no luck
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@mhoye and hooking your website into the modern advertising industry immediately rules out that user. Their system can't handle all the popups and animations and JS.
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I get the snark, but "page has to load in x time on expensive device in expensive city"... where is the human? Your audience isn't a phone.
I know I've said this a lot, but I think about the NHS digital design standards all the time, about that presentation where their lead designer talked about finding agent strings for devices like the Playstation Vita and Opera for the Nintendo DS in their logs. About how the NHS site had to work for those people too, no matter what.
@mhoye IMHO we need to be intolerant against bloatware, adware and abkeist webdesign in general!
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I get the snark, but "page has to load in x time on expensive device in expensive city"... where is the human? Your audience isn't a phone.
I know I've said this a lot, but I think about the NHS digital design standards all the time, about that presentation where their lead designer talked about finding agent strings for devices like the Playstation Vita and Opera for the Nintendo DS in their logs. About how the NHS site had to work for those people too, no matter what.
@mhoye also the GOV UK Design system generally is really a great resource! https://design-system.service.gov.uk/get-started/
Also check out @beeps write-up on the design of the "exit this page" feature to keep users at risk safe: https://beeps.website/blog/2024-10-09-why-govuk-exit-this-page-doesnt-use-escape/
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"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."
@mhoye nodds in agreement
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@mhoye I had a forum user who was a Buddhist in a monastery using a PS Vita. I still think about them.
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@mhoye I'm reminded of a StackExchange question where someone was asking why USB 1.0 caught on so popularly when it was slower than a lot of cables at the time?
My comment in a thread back then was essentially "It reduced the amount of time someone was looking for the right cable to start the process, which meant they could take longer waiting on the end result, because they knew the cable and cable port would work.".
@AT1ST @mhoye this is the past through rose colored glasses. It was never all so simple back then. For the first maybe ten years, the normal thing you'd expect when you plugged a USB device into a Windows computer was that it would bring up a wizard to find the appropriate driver, which would fail, and you'd have to search the internet for "[name and brand of thing] USB driver," download and run an exe file, and pray.
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@AT1ST @mhoye this is the past through rose colored glasses. It was never all so simple back then. For the first maybe ten years, the normal thing you'd expect when you plugged a USB device into a Windows computer was that it would bring up a wizard to find the appropriate driver, which would fail, and you'd have to search the internet for "[name and brand of thing] USB driver," download and run an exe file, and pray.
@ryanprior @mhoye Oh, I know that is what was necessary - my point, however, is that you reduced the amount of time one spent trying to find the right port, or the right adapter, for a given cable to connect a device *to* the PC.
Especially as the number of USB ports on a given motherboard increased, and you no longer had to play "How do I get this cable to *this specific port*", and can now focus on "How do I get my computer to recognize the thing that is connected by the port?".
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@ryanprior @mhoye Oh, I know that is what was necessary - my point, however, is that you reduced the amount of time one spent trying to find the right port, or the right adapter, for a given cable to connect a device *to* the PC.
Especially as the number of USB ports on a given motherboard increased, and you no longer had to play "How do I get this cable to *this specific port*", and can now focus on "How do I get my computer to recognize the thing that is connected by the port?".
@ryanprior @mhoye Like, to be specific, the thing you mentioned happens the first time.
The thing I mentioned...happens *every* time you use the same device.
See, for example, having to accommodate a USB-Micro-B or USB-Mini-B port for a charger, or an iPhone charging port; those are always more harder than "I think I need to flip the USB-A connector twice, maybe thrice, before it'll fit in.".
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I get the snark, but "page has to load in x time on expensive device in expensive city"... where is the human? Your audience isn't a phone.
I know I've said this a lot, but I think about the NHS digital design standards all the time, about that presentation where their lead designer talked about finding agent strings for devices like the Playstation Vita and Opera for the Nintendo DS in their logs. About how the NHS site had to work for those people too, no matter what.
@mhoye I read the OP as strongly implying that if someone’s site doesn’t even work well for people with the fastest devices in a place with ubiquitous good connectivity, then it’s so far from working well for people with crappy devices & marginal connectivity that they need to have a good, hard look at themselves
I think you might be basically on the same side, just using different words
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"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."
@mhoye@cosocial.ca Joke's on you: I target older HTML5. Like my JS doesn't use shit like
letof my own volition. -
"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."
@mhoye@cosocial.ca Also axing legacy shit IS an equity issue.
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"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."
@mhoye@cosocial.ca I think your quote IS real.
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"Your use case is, there's a fourteen year old in an emergency room at 3 AM. English is their second or maybe fourth language. They have a battered school Chromebook or a hand-me-down Android device that was the cheapest thing on the market six years ago or a PS Vita their parents don't even realize has a web browser, and they're trying to educate themselves in the middle of the single most terrifying night they've ever experienced. Your site needs to work for that person at that moment."
@mhoye@cosocial.ca My friends in poverty can confirm this is a real thing.
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@mhoye@cosocial.ca My friends in poverty can confirm this is a real thing.
@mhoye@cosocial.ca Like let me just say this: if you make any mission-critical public service pages that don't need to do any handling of sensitive information, it's perfectly okay to have them load even on older devices AND not have HTTPS. For instance http://b3k.me/b3k.htm can run on fucking Gopher if you point an HTML5 browser at a Gopher server (I'm running that on SDF's) or even an intranet or even offline from a file or data URL. It can run on P2P browsers like Beaker, and could even run on the Tor network if I put it there (although I shudder to think of what the Dark Web would do with it, but I don't have to think of it because a certain troll already saw fit to use it as a way to obfuscate illegal data and told everyone how to on his blog on
WordPress, so that's why I'm not going to be shipping a Tor version anytime soon) for some reason. It can run from synced cloud folders. It can run from a Mass Storage Device, Wii with HTTP, ESP32 with HTTP, a fucking vape, an RPi, Copyparty, FTP, or anything you can think of, so long as it's HTML5. But it has no issue on shit like Basilisk XPMod, PaleMoon, and InterWebPPC. So your ancient Macs and PCs can run it. Also it can run on Hurd and BSDs. Or Rhapsody's server. Maybe even Win9x and Win2K via Kernel shenanigans. LisaWorks can also host HTML so this code could be delivered from an Apple Lisa. Any of WindowsG Electronics' old PCs and "Universal Serial Bussies" could def host this damn thing. Some can even directly run it. So have fun with that! Also this code can fight censorship. -
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