✅ Servers on Mastodon and the wider Fediverse use tried-and-tested methods to connect to each other, similar to the technologies on email and the world wide web.
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AFAIK all the various software options Fedi servers run on are all open source, so outsiders can check what they do and how they do it.
Proprietary closed source software is pretty rare on here.
@FediTips But you can't be sure that the software runing has not been modified, or that some middleware is not doing something unusual with the data. I'm not saying it' would be bad. It's just that saying the Fediverse doesn't use AI or LLMS is just not verifiable.
Especially in "the wider Fediverse", as anyone can ActivityPub to anything! -
@FediTips But you can't be sure that the software runing has not been modified, or that some middleware is not doing something unusual with the data. I'm not saying it' would be bad. It's just that saying the Fediverse doesn't use AI or LLMS is just not verifiable.
Especially in "the wider Fediverse", as anyone can ActivityPub to anything!Are you suggesting some additional steps people should take to verify?
Or are you saying that if something cannot be verified, it must be assumed to be untrue?
I'm not sure how practical that second option is in the real world?
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Are you suggesting some additional steps people should take to verify?
Or are you saying that if something cannot be verified, it must be assumed to be untrue?
I'm not sure how practical that second option is in the real world?
@FediTips
> Are you suggesting some additional steps people should take to verify?
Sadly it's not possible to verify it 100%> Or are you saying that if something cannot be verified, it must be assumed to be untrue?
I'm not saying it should be considered false (untrue), but that something that cannot be demonstrated (verified) shouldn't be considered true.The only right answer is "We don't know if some fediverse-enabled servers are doing things that others don't/bad things/use LLMS/etc"
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@FediTips
> Are you suggesting some additional steps people should take to verify?
Sadly it's not possible to verify it 100%> Or are you saying that if something cannot be verified, it must be assumed to be untrue?
I'm not saying it should be considered false (untrue), but that something that cannot be demonstrated (verified) shouldn't be considered true.The only right answer is "We don't know if some fediverse-enabled servers are doing things that others don't/bad things/use LLMS/etc"
If people are doing the right thing in how they run their social network instances, how do you suggest we give them credit for doing the right thing?
Or should we assume that they might be doing the wrong thing and give them no credit at all?
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If people are doing the right thing in how they run their social network instances, how do you suggest we give them credit for doing the right thing?
Or should we assume that they might be doing the wrong thing and give them no credit at all?
@FediTips You can give them credit by saying how cool it is that they spend resources running free software for all of us to enjoy,
You can give them credit by making a great account dedicated to helping users find their way on these platforms (that's you, kudos to you!)
But, saying things that we cannot know are true is not helping them, or others at all! It's just a feel-good fluffy statement that does not hold water, sorry. But, don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us.
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@FediTips You can give them credit by saying how cool it is that they spend resources running free software for all of us to enjoy,
You can give them credit by making a great account dedicated to helping users find their way on these platforms (that's you, kudos to you!)
But, saying things that we cannot know are true is not helping them, or others at all! It's just a feel-good fluffy statement that does not hold water, sorry. But, don't beat yourself up, it happens to all of us.
"You can give them credit by saying how cool it is that they spend resources running free software for all of us to enjoy"
How do you know it's free software? They might be running proprietary software? Why are you trusting them on that but not the other claims?
"saying things that we cannot know are true is not helping them"
If you were in a vegan shop, would you tell people they shouldn't bother because they have no way of verifying that the products are actually vegan?
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"You can give them credit by saying how cool it is that they spend resources running free software for all of us to enjoy"
How do you know it's free software? They might be running proprietary software? Why are you trusting them on that but not the other claims?
"saying things that we cannot know are true is not helping them"
If you were in a vegan shop, would you tell people they shouldn't bother because they have no way of verifying that the products are actually vegan?
@FediTips Well if someone tells me "Hey look at this Mastodon instance, I'm running it for everyone!" I'm gonna say "Hey great! Thanks!", not "Meh, it's possible you changed the code to track us all". Even, if, it *could* be the case, objectively.
It's completely different than saying "All fediverse instances everywhere are free of AI, LLMs and algorithms".
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@FediTips Well if someone tells me "Hey look at this Mastodon instance, I'm running it for everyone!" I'm gonna say "Hey great! Thanks!", not "Meh, it's possible you changed the code to track us all". Even, if, it *could* be the case, objectively.
It's completely different than saying "All fediverse instances everywhere are free of AI, LLMs and algorithms".
...but you don't know they are running Mastodon. It might be totally different software with a Mastodon-like front end (which some Fedi instances are, though usually another FOSS back end).
Why is it okay to take FOSS use on trust but not okay to take the other stuff on trust?
I'm sorry to be precise here but if you're going to criticise me for being imprecise, it seems important for you to stick to your own principles?
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...but you don't know they are running Mastodon. It might be totally different software with a Mastodon-like front end (which some Fedi instances are, though usually another FOSS back end).
Why is it okay to take FOSS use on trust but not okay to take the other stuff on trust?
I'm sorry to be precise here but if you're going to criticise me for being imprecise, it seems important for you to stick to your own principles?
@FediTips Ok, let's get back to this.
> "you don't know they are running Mastodon. I"
True. But here it wouldn't matter too much if they were lying, as they are not making any other claims about their "Mastodon" instance.> "Why is it okay to take FOSS use on trust but not okay to take the other stuff on trust?"
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?> "it seems important for you to stick to your own principles?"
It's only important for me to stick to reality, really.
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@FediTips Ok, let's get back to this.
> "you don't know they are running Mastodon. I"
True. But here it wouldn't matter too much if they were lying, as they are not making any other claims about their "Mastodon" instance.> "Why is it okay to take FOSS use on trust but not okay to take the other stuff on trust?"
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?> "it seems important for you to stick to your own principles?"
It's only important for me to stick to reality, really.
(continued)@FediTips
Let's say I have two Border Collie dogs. That breed is known to be rather friendly, and rarely bites.
But, it'd be wrong for me to say "Border Collies DO NOT bite", because it might get someone who trusts what I say to get bit in the future by some random Border Collie.
But, if I meet you one day, you have a Border Collie, and you tell me "You can pet him, he doesn't bite"', I will probably pet the dog. Even though it's *possible* you might be lying. -
@FediTips Ok, let's get back to this.
> "you don't know they are running Mastodon. I"
True. But here it wouldn't matter too much if they were lying, as they are not making any other claims about their "Mastodon" instance.> "Why is it okay to take FOSS use on trust but not okay to take the other stuff on trust?"
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?> "it seems important for you to stick to your own principles?"
It's only important for me to stick to reality, really.
(continued)Perhaps I've misunderstood, but you seemed to be saying that you would praise a site for running FOSS even if you couldn't verify it was actually running FOSS?
If it's okay to take the FOSS claim on trust, why can't we take the other claims (no tracking, no LLM, no blockchain etc) on trust too?
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@FediTips
Let's say I have two Border Collie dogs. That breed is known to be rather friendly, and rarely bites.
But, it'd be wrong for me to say "Border Collies DO NOT bite", because it might get someone who trusts what I say to get bit in the future by some random Border Collie.
But, if I meet you one day, you have a Border Collie, and you tell me "You can pet him, he doesn't bite"', I will probably pet the dog. Even though it's *possible* you might be lying.If someone says "water is healthy to drink and the best way to quench your thirst", there are all kinds of potential exceptions to that including fatal ones, but the statement is still accurate.
I don't want to take this thread into philosophy and linguistics, but my intention with the original post was something similar to a "water is healthy" statement.
Public messaging about important concepts tends to be along these lines. A lot of people simply ignore complex stuff.
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If someone says "water is healthy to drink and the best way to quench your thirst", there are all kinds of potential exceptions to that including fatal ones, but the statement is still accurate.
I don't want to take this thread into philosophy and linguistics, but my intention with the original post was something similar to a "water is healthy" statement.
Public messaging about important concepts tends to be along these lines. A lot of people simply ignore complex stuff.
@FediTips
But what you said was more akin to "Any water you can find is good to drink!"It's might be seen as a subtle difference, but it makes *a lot* of difference.
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@FediTips
But what you said was more akin to "Any water you can find is good to drink!"It's might be seen as a subtle difference, but it makes *a lot* of difference.
Public messaging is about getting important info to your target audience so that some net public good is achieved.
My account is mainly for non-techy new people who want help with the basics. My followers, especially the ones who ask for help, are almost all on Masto instances.
I'm trying to get across to these people that their server isn't tracking them or using blockchain or AI or anything like that.
You're possibly seeing my post from a different POV than its target audience?
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Servers on Mastodon and the wider Fediverse use tried-and-tested methods to connect to each other, similar to the technologies on email and the world wide web. The network's servers are almost all run by non-profits supported by user donations. The network's software is free open source and designed for the needs of the people who use it.
Servers on Mastodon and the wider Fediverse DO NOT use AI, LLMs, blockchain, cryptocurrency, algorithms, trackers, ads or anything like that.Threads has all that bad stuff.
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Threads has all that bad stuff.
Well that's true but I have defederated Threads so no one on there is going to see this post.
Also, their connection to the Fedi seems pretty weak anyway as only a tiny proportion of their users connect to it and those that do are shut out from so many Fedi servers (especially since Zuckerberg announced hate posts are allowed on Threads).
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Public messaging is about getting important info to your target audience so that some net public good is achieved.
My account is mainly for non-techy new people who want help with the basics. My followers, especially the ones who ask for help, are almost all on Masto instances.
I'm trying to get across to these people that their server isn't tracking them or using blockchain or AI or anything like that.
You're possibly seeing my post from a different POV than its target audience?
@FediTips I don't think it's a question of point of view. The point of view of your audience is that they don't know much about the Fediverse, and will tend to trust what you say. <insert Spiderman quote about power and responsability here>
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@FediTips I don't think it's a question of point of view. The point of view of your audience is that they don't know much about the Fediverse, and will tend to trust what you say. <insert Spiderman quote about power and responsability here>
You're talking as if there is one effective message that is appropriate for everyone, but there isn't.
If you were promoting health in a country with good water treatment, a good message might be "Water is the healthiest thing to drink" because the main danger is unhealthy drinks with sugar or alcohol.
If you were promoting health in a country with poor water treatment, your message might be a warning instead about the dangers of water and their potentially deadly impurities.
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Servers on Mastodon and the wider Fediverse use tried-and-tested methods to connect to each other, similar to the technologies on email and the world wide web. The network's servers are almost all run by non-profits supported by user donations. The network's software is free open source and designed for the needs of the people who use it. Servers on Mastodon and the wider Fediverse DO NOT use AI, LLMs, blockchain, cryptocurrency, algorithms, trackers, ads or anything like that.
@FediTips One thing I saw no one mentioning is that it's weird how the meaning of the word "algorithm" shifted from "a set of instructions to solve something" to "a non-open-source recommendation system made to make users addicted to a platform". In the original sense Mastodon has lots of algorithms, and in the newer sense it has recommendation algorithms (like the who to follow and the trending tab) but those are open-source and not meant to drive addiction.
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@FediTips One thing I saw no one mentioning is that it's weird how the meaning of the word "algorithm" shifted from "a set of instructions to solve something" to "a non-open-source recommendation system made to make users addicted to a platform". In the original sense Mastodon has lots of algorithms, and in the newer sense it has recommendation algorithms (like the who to follow and the trending tab) but those are open-source and not meant to drive addiction.
Yeah, "algorithm" is a tricky word because it has very different meanings to different audiences.
I'm using the word in the sense that most people use it: an opaque set of hidden rules that hide stuff or push stuff or move stuff around usually without your knowledge or permission, a mysterious force.
Obviously this isn't the definition that compsci or developers would use, but the FediTips account is aimed at a more general non-technical audience.
